Think Differently. Solve the Impossible.

Show Notes

NOT OF THIS WORLD...1964 SOCORRO UFO. Witness, Policeman Lonnie Zamora 
By Ben Moss and Tony Angiola
On Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08S5JLXRG    

Unsolved Mysteries - The Socorro UFO
One of the longest running programs in the history of television tells the story of a police officer seeing a UFO and its occupants land in the New Mexico desert in 1964.
https://unsolved.com/gallery/socorro-ufo 

The Alien Explorations Conference
April 4-6, 2005
Learn about the UFO phenomenon from the world’s leading experts while you enjoy incredible mountain views along with red and green chile in the Land of Enchantment.
https://www.alienexplorationsconference.com

The Socorro UFO Incident, The State of Todays Ufology w/ Ben Moss.
https://www.youtube.com/live/-nxlip4R1NE

Transcript

My guest today is Ben Moss.

Ben's an independent UFO, UAP researcher, investigator and author.

UAP stands for Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena.

The US Department of Defense coined that term quite recently in 2022 to replace the term UFO coined by the Air Force in 1952, because they think the term UFO is associated with the alien visitors.

Ben has been a guest expert as a UFO researcher on Netflix, History Channel's Hangar 1, the Discovery Channel's NASA's Unexplained Files, and the Travel Channel's American Mysteries.

He is the chief field investigator for MUFON in the state of Virginia.

The Mutual UFO Network is the world's oldest and largest civilian UFO investigation and research organization.

Ben's book is Not of This World, 1964, Socorro UFO.

It's based on a UFO landing in Socorro, New Mexico in 1964, and his personal experience with it.

Welcome to my show, Ben.

Thanks for having me.

I should say I'm the former Chief Investigator at MUFON.

I left MUFON a couple of years ago.

Well, you've been doing this for a long time.

Yeah.

So, and it's probably volunteer, not paid and so forth.

So.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So tell me about, tell me anything you want to tell me about.

I've got a lot of things to ask you about.

Let's start with your personal story, how you got involved investigating UFOs, and the UFO landing in New Mexico in 1964.

I remember as a kid, I was watching a TV show with my father and I'm dating myself.

It was a Walter Cronkite special on UFOs.

And so at the time, I was a big comic book reader, mostly Marvel Comics at the time.

And of course, if I had all the comics I bought then, I'd be a millionaire because there were so much now.

But it got to the point where every time I went to buy comics, I would buy every UFO magazine in the store and got really interested because a couple of the things that would appear in those magazines were bona fide cases.

They weren't hoaxes or the tabloid type things.

So as I grew older, I got more interested.

And then I joined MUFON back in the 90s as an investigator, then became the Chief Hill Investigator where I was assigning cases and taking cases myself.

And the more you look into it, the weirder it gets.

And it's funny because this new designation UAP, I think more accurately it should be unknown aerial phenomenon.

Because when you say anomalous.

Ben actually took me preparing for the show a week.

I couldn't wrap my head around that term.

Because anomaly means an anomaly compared to something else.

For starters, it's the word.

And why did we need a new term?

And then Wikipedia says scientist, and didn't like that term, like who didn't like it?

It's more confusing to me.

It doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

I mean, the government will tell us anything.

They want to feed us, not anything that's truthful about this phenomena.

That's why I still, much to the jargon of some people, I don't believe disclosure will ever come because they'd have to admit to all the lies of the years and admit that they don't either don't know what the heck is going on.

They certainly not going to come out and say, look, there's things flying around over military spaces, maybe hurting people, but flying with impunity anywhere they want to go, there's not a darn thing we can do about it.

But hey, it's okay.

You don't worry about it.

So speaking of that, a while back, I mean, it's been 10 or 15 years.

I wasn't sure if UFO, like most people, do you believe in them?

I mean, if I have to say, I mean, I don't have proof.

Then one night I was watching this Larry King show.

If you know what I'm talking about, please tell me.

So on it, he's saying, it's not a spoof.

UFOs are real.

The Pope just in on this, UFOs are real.

There was an MI6, the British military guy, the UFO expert, saying, yes, UFOs are real.

We're going to release stuff as time goes on.

And there's another UFO expert on this.

And Larry asked him, why now?

He's like, I can't believe this is happening.

So a week goes by and I check the newspaper and I'm like, because life goes on for me.

I'm not one of those that panic or get too crazy over things changing.

Nothing.

So I Googled it and that episode was taken down for copyright.

Only that episode, mind you, all the other Larry King episodes are still there.

Then right after that, Larry King retired.

It was two years before he came back on the show.

You say you know it, so tell me your experience on it.

Well, he had Richard Dottie on there, who's a disinformation specialist on one of those UFO episodes.

The whole point of everything that's going on now with the new supposed new UFO investigative group that's in the government and all, it's still all a smoke screen.

It goes back to Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, which were public facing organizations put out there to dispel the topic or lead you down the wrong rabbit holes and nowhere.

The whole point of all these, even the new ones is to take your eye off the ball.

The truth, they don't want you to know the truth because this is classified above anything else in the world.

Imagine if when they first came out and said these might be an adversary's tech, the tic-tac.

Well, if it was an adversary's tech, we'd all be speaking Chinese or Russian by now.

What is adversary's?

Adversary is like Russia or China, countries that were having battles with, hacking each other and maybe going to war with.

Because UFOs seem to have crashed in multiple countries.

But the last thing, I believe Roswell was a real event, a real crash.

But almost all the military that was there at the time before they died said it was an alien spacecraft with bodies.

But the threats were, if you talk about it, not only will you lose your job, they won't find your bones in the desert, will shoot your dog, burn your house down, kill your family.

So that threat level tells you that whatever the secret is to this, it's so closely guarded and so possibly terrifying, they will never want an explosion.

They keep getting bits and pieces, but they don't lead any.

Yeah.

It's like Rob Lowe has this show literally, and he had crime junkie host Ashley Flowers as a guest.

I was listening to this on TV, they're talking about UFOs like they're real.

They both believe they're real.

They both said they've released news stories that say they're real, kind of like the Larry King.

And yet, of course, when all of us Google it, it says, no, the government has not confirmed aliens are real.

So then, what if, here's an idea I have, what if back to Roswell, it was real and our government actually has that technology, and uses it to their advantage.

For example, say there's good aliens out there wanting to make contact with us, and our government fakes UFOs and causes damage to make it look like UFOs want to harm us.

Is that a possibility?

I don't think that they want to, it's all a very sophisticated smoke screen.

If you really dig into Roswell, which I have, and most good investigators look for themselves and don't take everything and face the value, you really see the truth of it.

And even the ship itself was a wedge-shaped craft with some spoilers on it, something that was probably meant to fly in the atmosphere.

But a guy named Rhodes actually photographed it a couple of weeks before the crash, as the famous Rhodes photos of that same craft.

But it looks, it's very close to the design of our stealth fighters and our fixed, you know, our B-1 bomber.

I mean, it's the same type of design.

And back in, I think, it was 1969, one scientist got a hold of some, he was talking to Canada, and Canada had a paper they released that said, we got pieces of the Roswell craft and everybody's trying to figure it out.

And in 69, you know, 18 years later, or 22 years after 1947, they still hadn't figured out 99% of what the material was.

And some of the material that has been analyzed, it's put together on a molecular level.

And so when you build things like that, you know, if you're using, say, things that we don't know of yet, and we had a meteorite crash recently where it was made of substances we weren't familiar with.

But even if it's iron or nickel or aluminum or whatever, the isotope of ratio is going to be different from another solar system.

So the way they put things together is what gives us unique properties.

But the fact that 22 years and afterwards, they were still trying to figure out how the stuff worked.

And the Roswell craft apparently had no engine or anything like that.

So I think that I'm still not too sure about reverse engineering.

I think we're probably using some of the tech, and we made advances, certainly.

After 47, a lot of advances were made, a lot of science.

How do you come aware of this stuff?

You talk as if what you're saying is common knowledge.

It is among good researchers.

There's a lot of people that call themselves UFO experts, but there is no such thing as UFO expert because nobody knows what's really going on.

But when you talk to the people that have analyzed the metal, you look at the videos, you see what the scientists have to say, you see the technical papers about how it's constructed.

There are a lot of good scientists now that are digging into it, that before was the kiss of death for your career.

It's like pilots, if they reported it back in the day, they'd end up flying to desk, which means they would lose their license to fly.

Now, every time I fly, I ask the stewardess or the captain if I see him, have you ever seen a UFO?

I get a lot of very solid answers.

Recently, Tony Angiola and I flew to Denver, I think last year to the MUFON conference.

I asked the stewardess, I said, look, we're UFO researchers, can you ask the pilot to see a UFO?

We had just taken off, and she came back, and we were sitting on the right side of the plane.

She said, you mean like the two that just passed on our left?

It's almost like if I'm an alien, I don't have to worry about being incognito anymore.

What about the drones or the orbs?

On your LinkedIn, there was a post about the orbs or the drones, or the drones in the news.

What do you think about those?

I think the government knows what they are.

I've known all along.

I don't think those are anything but ours.

The purposes of them, most of them had the required lights, even though they were violating the airspaces and flying over airports and things, they had the required lights and the sophistication.

Their ability to stay in the air so long, the only devices that can do that are like military drones that monitor during war, that can stay on for days.

These things were up in the air at high altitudes for hours and hours on end.

Most drones you can buy as a civilian, you can't do that, they don't last that long.

They were probably military drones up there for some reason.

I think some of them got way too close to airplanes, and that's part of the problem.

We're going to have a collision sooner or later.

We've had a couple recently where one took out a wing, but that was probably a civilian's drone.

But I think they know what they are.

But you notice how it just disappeared.

You don't hear about drones anymore.

Or reappears.

It's whenever they want to be on the news, they make it.

Whenever they don't, they somehow bury it.

As Rob Lowe put it, they soft release it, bury it in the news, but they do officially release it.

The games on the news.

So how can people take my younger brother's one, and probably my older brother too, complete skeptics?

Unfortunate because they're smart people, but they can't even crack the box on in terms of, but if somebody wanted to, how could they separate fact from fiction, hoax from reality?

Because there's so much disinformation on the Internet.

Well, do your own homework.

I always don't take anything for granted.

That's why if I film something, I don't have to go through the first steps of trying to prove it's a hoax or CGI.

I filmed by myself.

I can skip those steps, which you had to do for cases that move on.

In cases I take now, you have to first figure out, are they lying?

Is it made up?

Is it CGI?

But read some of the-

What's a CGI?

It used to stand for Common Gateway Interface, but that's computer-generated images.

Made up stuff on a computer.

I see.

But my book, the book that Tony and I wrote, Five Year Investigation, read that and come to your own conclusion.

But the only one we could come to for the Sikora planning was not of this world.

Read Crash It Corrupta.

Oh, yeah.

So tell me about that.

Let's use that for an example on how you really investigate.

And you're always going to get discredited as not being scientific.

Sure.

But you are way more scientific than the news reporter who's just saying what's in the script.

Walk me through your investigative process for that.

Well, for that case, we had seen James Fox talk at a conference and he had mentioned Socorro and I didn't know, I knew of it, but this was, gosh, this was probably 12, 14 years ago, but I wasn't real familiar with it.

So I had seen a tape on TV where a person had been driving through with their family and filmed the landing spot right after it happened.

And I told James Fox, who's a friend of mine, that I would find it for him.

And with this whole process, we had two covers of the Mufon Journal, the search for lost Socorro footage.

But once I started digging into it, I found more and more information, because I wanted to go in and see if I could prove it was, you know, the common themes of the time where I was a student hoax or was the lunar lander.

And after disproving both of those things, you know, you come down to, the only thing that's left is the truth, and it's kind of oxen's razor.

But Lonnie Zamora, the policeman that witnessed that landing, didn't, wasn't in the UFOs, had no reason to talk about it, kind of changed his life and not in a good way.

So we looked at all the explanations.

It wasn't a student hoax.

I actually found the students who were named by Colgate at New Mexico University.

He kind of made a story up and then tried to cover up his lie afterwards.

But when the student hoax, you couldn't create all the things that happened because Lonnie was chasing a speeder in 1964 of April.

He saw a blue flame go overhead.

He thought something might, a plane might be crashing.

Went out into the desert, took him three tries to get up this hill.

Once he crested the hill, he thought he saw an overturned vehicle.

As he got closer, he noticed it was an egg-shaped object on four landing gear, and there were two beings standing, looking up under it because I believe it was having some kind of difficulty in flying.

But they were only as tall as a creasite bush that was there, which was four feet tall.

There's no program in our aviation that uses small people or what we used to call midgets for pilots.

It just doesn't exist.

They were only four feet tall.

They jumped back in the vehicle, but before that happened, there was a family, a husband and wife and three kids who had been driving, pulled into Opal Grinder's gas station before Lonnie started pursuing this object, who said, look, I almost got hit by a funny looking craft.

And Opal Grinder, the gas station owner, says it was a helicopter.

And they said if it was a helicopter, it was a funny looking helicopter.

It was egg shaved and it almost hit their car, which tells me it was having trouble navigating.

So he's told Opal Grinder, he saw a policeman going after it, so he figured it was taken care of.

And the place where this craft landed was kind of a depression, so unless you were there, you wouldn't see it from any angle.

But there were three people that called into the station from Albuquerque saying, we see this blue flame going towards Socorro.

And the thing had a blue flame that came out of the middle, but it wasn't a propellant because Lonnie, when it took off, and that blue flame came out, it was only about 35 feet from it.

And if it had been a rocket propellant, he would have been cooked.

And when the thing took off after the two creatures got inside, and then it went silent, the blue flame disappeared, it hovered for a minute, and then it took off reaching probably close to supersonic speed as it went towards what's called the perlite mill.

So when we investigated, we went to Socorro three times.

I talked to his family, I talked to his friends.

We looked in the student hoax, the two students said, I can't believe this guy threw us onto the bus.

We were on exams.

Nobody's out in the desert at that time of night.

There's scorpions, there's rocks everywhere.

You couldn't drive up there.

We beat our rental car to death trying to get to the site.

I looked at the lunar lander, and that is the most ludicrous explanation.

There's even a PhD scientist at New Mexico University that says that's what it was.

But the lunar lander was flying on Hollerman 30 miles away.

He wouldn't test a top-secret vehicle in the middle of a public desert.

Secondly, the lunar lander only had one test flight in atmosphere and almost killed the pilot.

I can't remember if it was one of the first guys to land on the moon.

But he had to eject.

He only ejected 200 feet before that thing hit the ground.

That was the only flight they had in atmosphere before they flew out to the moon.

Plus, the lunar lander had round landing gear, and the landing impressions made by this object were wedge-shaped.

Dr.

Heineck, when he showed up, he estimated the thing weighed nine tons that had made these impressions.

We also met Ray Stanford, who wrote the first book on Socorro called Socorro, Sautern, and Pentagon Pantry.

Ray had done a lot of homework.

He was there two weeks after it happened.

He was there with Dr.

Heineck.

He interviewed Lonnie Zamora.

Lonnie was disgusted with the whole thing, but towards the end of his life, he kept saying, at first he's called them white, small boys and white coveralls, but towards the end, he was calling them creatures.

And my belief is he got a closer look and knew they weren't human.

And being a devout Catholic, that freaked him out and he was never the same.

He actually spent three or four hours with his priest that night trying to resolve it.

And the priest told him, we found out, he said, you can do two things, Lonnie.

You can tell the truth or stop talking about it.

And so for the rest of his life, Lonnie never changed his story, never embollished it.

He had TV stations, he had people wanting to interview him.

He would fly them to Japan, all these places that wanted to help him, he never did that.

Do you think that's one of the reasons the government withholds it from us is because of how people would react?

No, I think after Star Trek came out, that kind of went out the window.

The old Brookings Institute report in the 60s said that, basing it off the reactions to Orson Welles' 1939 broadcast of War of the Worlds that freaked people out when they didn't realize it was just a play, they thought it was a real broadcast and we were being invaded by Mars.

But when you see these polls now, most people believe in alien life.

I mean, that's a lot of real estate out there for it not to be covered with life.

The fact that we keep finding all these perfect golden planets in the Golden Lock Zone, not too hot, not too cold, and multiple, there's trillions, trillions of planets out there, they probably have life on it.

Our solar system is very young.

If a civilization is coming here, that's a thousand years ahead of us, it would look like one thing.

But if it's 50,000 years ahead of us, we wouldn't even see it.

They could be all around us and they could be, there could be multiple civilizations.

I don't follow you, a thousand versus 50,000 years ahead of us.

Say there were a thousand years more advanced than us.

That would look like one thing.

Maybe we could figure it out or 500 years.

But if there were 50,000 years or a million years or whatever, a lot of these things that are coming here are probably just the same thing that we'll do.

We'll send out artificial intelligence machines.

They won't be polluted by people.

They might be clones or robots that have artificial intelligence.

I think that some of these things that are coming here from civilizations that have long since vanished, but they're still out there rebuilding themselves, replicating themselves, and their whole purpose was to search for life and gather information.

What do you think the government reason for not being honest with us, UFOs exist?

Why do you think they are suppressing that?

It's very simple, military applications.

If one crash in China and one crash in Russia, which it seems like that has happened, they want to get their hands on the tech first.

They want to be able to counter anything any of these other countries come up with.

It's all military advantages.

If you've got tech that's a thousand years or more advanced, and you can figure out how it works, you can make great leaps in technology.

The way you fly, the way you defend yourself, the way you travel space, which is-

That presupposes that the aliens themselves don't care.

We crashed or we didn't crash, but basically let the humans do their own thing.

Right?

That's kind of-

Well, I think if they're automated, they might not, it might be, they're not keeping good tabs on it.

But I think that because no matter how sophisticated you are, we've crashed multiple things into Mars, we've crashed things into the moon, we've had failed missions.

The Roswell, for instance, it seemed like we had just put in this new radar at the time, at the army base there, and or air forces before the air force is actually formed.

But they said that the new radar seemed to interfere with the way these things flew.

It seemed when they passed through the radar, they had trouble.

And I think the Roswell was two craft, went through the radar during a storm and got struck by lightning at the same time.

And that's to be brammed into each other, crashed and you had bodies in one place, and two or three crash sites.

But I think that the reason that they don't want to talk about it is because they've been lying for a long, long time.

They've threatened a lot of people.

They've got technology that they ceded to organizations that have made a lot of money on it.

They don't want Russia or China to get their hands on the tech.

And if they have it, they want to be able to have the same thing to defend it.

Okay.

Except Ben, that doesn't, I don't think that totally explains it because I'm putting myself as a military guy.

I want this thing for, I'm the general.

I could still tell people where I got it.

Oh, I captured a UFO that crashed.

And if you see a UFO crash, let me know because it's our country.

We're trying to, everybody be like, okay, we're on your side.

You could do both, right?

No, the Roswell crash set up the whole thing.

The news got out, you know, disk fell on a ranch.

That was in the papers before they clamped down on it.

Then they had to backtrack on it.

But the guy that put the press release together, Walter Haught, you know, he had an unsealed affidavit to be open after he died.

And after he died, the affidavit said, look, we handed that stuff around.

It wasn't from this planet.

This was not built on our planet.

The reason for, you know, if a military person said, we got it from a UFO, then that opens the door to all these questions.

What UFO?

Where did it crash?

What's it made out of?

Who was in it?

You know, they don't...

They just want to say it's not happening.

It's not real.

It's from China.

It's from Russia.

So they don't have to answer to anybody because these black projects command trillions of dollars that even Congress can't find out where that money goes to, where it comes from.

And Dwight Eisenhower and Harry Truman both warned about black projects becoming too black that they don't answer anybody.

Well, we're there now.

They don't answer to anybody.

They get a lot of money.

Nobody can find out what they do with it.

And these secret projects, Area 51, the stuff they built out there, a lot of people don't know that.

I think it was Truman wanted to know what was going on at Area 51 and they denied him access.

And he's one that you just mentioned, black project.

He kind of started it, right?

Because he had to.

Yeah.

He said, when they said, we can't tell you what we're doing.

He said, I'll bring the army to your door, but you let me come.

And they let him come.

And Truman, you know, in some of the old videos from or movie clips from the day, he would say, they would ask him about UFOs.

He goes, oh, that's the first time we talk about it, every Joint Chief of SAS Media.

And then he'd stop talking about it afterwards.

And then subsequent persons wouldn't talk about it.

And if you notice, it almost sounds to me like the black project people took over from day one, like we're going to do our own thing.

And they used as an excuse the secrecy not to talk to the president.

And then they got more secretive and more secretive, like built their own little club.

Yeah, I mean, Howard Bloom wrote a good book about it, The Secret UFO Working Group.

But they don't answer to anybody and you'll never know their names.

These organizations that APRO, or not APRO, but the recent one that had the guy who was basically full of crap.

But they're just still public facing to deny.

That would make more sense because then it's not actually our government hiding stuff.

It's that group.

And they do have to benefit because maybe they share some stuff with the military, but mostly they're keeping it to themselves.

Well, yeah, if you looked at the congressional hearings, all the congressmen were asking the right questions, and David Grush and all the people was like, I have to take this to a skiff, which means they have to talk about it privately.

And so, and he's been threatened, but who's threatening him?

And Congress doesn't even, Congress doesn't know.

The presidents maybe get a little briefing.

If you notice on, like on, it was on Letterman or Jimmy Kimmel or even on Colbert, when President Obama and President Bush and President Clinton were asked about UFOs, Clinton got real nervous and Bush and Obama said, I can't, I can't talk about it.

Yeah.

It's kind of like the IRS.

You don't want to be audited because you said something bad about them no matter who you are.

So what I'm tangenting a little bit, I want to hear some more UFO investigations.

What do you think the intent of the black project people is then?

To figure it out for defensive purposes and maybe world domination.

Humans are, I mean, the aliens got good reasons not to talk to us because they monitor us because we're about to travel space, but we're still killing each other.

We're still not conscious beings, we're still materialistic, fighting all the time.

I mean, look at the world right now.

It's a mess.

Who wants this species out in space?

Yeah.

Was going to ask you one question.

Do you think there's good aliens and bad aliens, just like there's good people and good governments and bad people and bad governments?

I think that, I hope that once you have the ability to travel space, you've overcome your own atomic age, you've overcome your own social problems, and you're unified as a planet, and your purpose is to go find out what life is all about, and get answers to that.

That's not really correlating to how things are right now with SpaceX and going to Mars.

Yeah, I don't have a good musk, but it's all about all these projects.

We want to go to Mars, sure, but it's all about the Benjamins.

How much money can I make off of this?

How big can my company be?

We're still not, your idea that hopefully a race would be advanced and at peace and whatnot before it goes into space.

We're not at peace, that's given, and yet we're trying to go to Mars already.

That's where they're watching us.

Ever since the first atomic bomb, UFOs became much more widely seen, but they go back in history.

Back in ancient times, they talked about burning shields crossing the skies.

These are all written on tablets from a long time ago.

Ezekiel's wheel and all these stories from the Bible could be extraterrestrial encounters instead of angels or demons.

If you ran to a UFO in 400 BC, you might think it's a demon or an angel or something like that.

Yeah.

So tell me about some more of your investigations.

So for those who are skeptical back to my brothers, they might understand that you're not, what's the polite word for when critics beat you up and go, oh, you're nuts.

They go, you're nuts.

Tell me some more about your investigation either more with the Socorro one or another one to help people understand.

You're not crazy.

Yeah.

I mean, with Socorro, we went into trying to give a reasonable explanation.

When we ran out of reasonable explanations, we had to come to grips with what Lonnie said he saw was actually what he saw.

When I spent a long time going through, we got these files from a guy that found a Blue Book file for sale on Craigslist.

Somebody had moved, it was Lieutenant Moreno, who had been a project Blue Book and left a box behind.

Then that box were a lot of Blue Book files, and a lot of the stuff was on Socorro.

I actually had one of the top secret photographs that was declassified on the back of the photograph.

But they were baffled by it, and their internal memos show that they didn't know what it was.

Even years later, Captain Holder, who was upper-range commander at White Sands who invested in the case, he said he was baffled by the Joint Chief of Staffs.

She'll call him years later going, can we explain this?

Do we know what it was?

He said, no, we didn't have a black project.

We don't make egg-shaped craft that way.

The ironic thing about that is because it's a UFO.

It's like, that's why we don't know.

It's almost like people are expecting to know what it is, and they can't because they don't know.

You just have to eliminate all the things that we can do with physics right now.

And when you have objects that defy physics, like the Tic Tac, the pilot, Faber and the other pilot said that thing went from 80,000 feet to a foot above the ocean in less than a second.

And I think that's 88,000 miles per hour.

So obviously, I believe these things are surrounded by what I call a static shell.

They have their own gravity or no gravity.

So they're surrounded by a shell that negates gravity that enables them to do these type of movements and they don't get slammed against the wall.

But the technology, if that's true, which I believe the pilot saw what they say they saw, and the thing flew in front of them and then was off the horizon in a second.

We don't have anything close to that.

I mean, if we did, you'd see it in warfare.

And we're not seeing that in warfare.

Look at the Ukrainian-Russian War.

Look at all the wars we fought.

I still think there's gun camera footage from Korea and Vietnam that's better than any footage we've seen today with UFOs in it.

Because most of these jets and fighter have cameras in them.

And the stuff that's leaking out, some of it's pretty good, but it's still grainy.

It's still kind of blurry.

But there's clear footage of these things.

And when you apply the known physics to what these things are doing, they're not made by us.

And you just got to do a little homework.

If you go with the attitude that I'm not going to have an opinion one way or the other, because I never went in thinking these are ETs.

I wanted them to think, well, let's figure out what it is.

And you eliminate everything else.

Sometimes ET or interdimensional or from the future or whatever.

That's the only good answer because they're not made by us.

They defy the laws of physics as we know it.

They're made of materials we can't figure out yet.

They fly in ways that we can't understand.

Back to the Larry King episode.

Why do you think we get this soft release like they're real, but then, you know, again, if you ask Google, they're not real.

Why do you think there's even soft releases of aliens are real?

Who distract you.

You know, if you get close to the truth, they come up with something that, hey, look over here.

Look at this shiny bright thing over here.

Don't look at what you were digging in, you know.

It's just to shoot you down another rabbit hole leads you off the path.

Right.

Like if it becomes so common knowledge, if you don't say something, then people know like you're hiding it.

So give them a carrot to chase after, to look at like wave, wave the, you know, the throw a bone, throw a bone, and then go, by the way, that bone is fake or it's a hoax.

Yeah.

I've always said that they'll dangle another carrot in front of you, but in reality, there is no carrot.

You know, it's just, it's just a misdirection.

It's subterfuge.

It's a way to, because some people do get close to the reality of things, and a lot of witnesses, even people who have had close encounters, they get visited by somebody or they get a phone call saying, if you keep running your mouth, you're going to disappear, and that's the threat that everybody heats.

Roswell, all the witnesses there were threatened with their life.

The people who've been testifying before Congress have been threatened with their life.

The same people, whoever is behind the secret, they're still doing the same things.

If somebody comes and says, if you keep talking, you're going to disappear, you're going to stop talking.

Or if they say, you made it up or you don't believe it anymore, they're going to change their tune, and a lot of people change their tune.

You wonder why?

Well, it's because they got threatened.

Because I would do the same thing, because as an individual, what's the point of being killed or hurt?

It's not going to change things.

You did what you did.

You did what you could.

It's somebody else's turn now.

There are a lot of people speaking up right now.

You mentioned interdimensional.

Tell me about that.

Well, I don't know if strength theory is still popular or not, but when you look at physics and the way things are made and the reality of the world, everything is energy, and everything vibrates at a certain frequency.

Humans can only see and hear in a very narrow band.

There's so much stuff going on that we can't see and hear, that maybe a dog can because they have vision in different frequencies and can hear things from a mile away.

But if everything is vibrating at a different frequency, there could be multiple layers of universes right on top of us, just vibrating at a different frequency, and sometimes it bleeds through.

Yeah, just like for those people that aren't grasping it, if when you have your radio, most people listen to music on their computer now, but if you have a radio, a car radio, you tune the dial, all these stations are literally existing at the same time, even though they're different frequencies at the same time, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Like changing the channel.

Yeah.

We still don't know.

We're getting closer to being there.

Some people say you can go forward in time, you can't go back in time, but there's really time is kind of an illusion.

There's only now.

There's only the moment now.

What's past doesn't exist anymore.

What's to come, nobody knows that doesn't exist yet either.

There's only now.

So if there are multiple dimensions, or multiple layers of reality, maybe this explains some ghosts and poltergeist activity.

Sometimes it bleeds through.

Sometimes they get on our frequency and go back off of it.

But who's to say that these things are, they could be ET, they could be interdimensional, they could be us from the future, they could be many things, or they could be all of those things.

It could be something on Earth that's existed long before mankind that we're just starting to see more of.

But it doesn't have to be one or the other.

You could have both interdimensional, or we're all in the same universe at the same time, and there's UFOs from our time, as well as UFOs from the past.

They don't have to be grouped together one or the other.

Yeah, there's just a lot of possibilities, all the terrestrials.

We're so caught up in what we think we know everything, and then when something new comes along, you know, who, 100 years ago.

We're also, it's our nature to, it's one or the other.

You know, we either understand it this way, there can't be two different ways of something that something can be, so we get locked into it.

That's how that works.

You know, it can't work this way and that way.

Yeah, I mean, in 1925 to 2025, 100 years, look how far we've come.

From the Wright brothers to the moon, to Mars, you know, from the telegraph to the internet.

Nikolai Tesla predicted all this with wireless communications.

He predicted cell phones, he predicted all of that, which I'm glad I didn't grow up with cell phones and computers because I had a much nicer childhood instead of this.

Yeah, the one thing that pisses me off more than anything is when I go to the gym and somebody's sitting on a piece of equipment I want to use staring at their cell phone.

The thing about the technology, it's getting bad.

I use AI, but I also realize that if it's sometimes good to take a day or two off because for your creativity, your real thoughts, your innovative new thoughts, you need to.

If you're always plugged in, you're only going to get what's already there, manipulate it in some way.

It doesn't really help you think a new thought outside the box.

Yeah, it's changing the way kids' brains work.

I mean, you got 1,000 friends that you never met.

Back in the day, you had to either remember or carry a list of phone numbers with you.

You had to be near a phone if you wanted to get a group of people together, you had to make plans.

Now, I just fear for the dumbing down of people using technology.

Because if we have like the Carrington event in the 1800s when the solar flare fried all the electrical equipment on the planet, if we had a big solar flare right now and everything went down, there's a great Twilight Zone episode, there was a great book about it.

But if everything got fried, the internet went down, TV went down, your phones didn't work.

Now, solar flare, you don't mean literally cooked by the heat, you mean the EMFs, the electron-magnetic radiation.

Yeah, the electron-magnetic radiation would fry all the satellites, would fry.

That's right, because come to think of it, you can actually do this.

I don't know how I know this stuff.

Oh, because as a rock climber, I had really bad experience in terms of the heat, and I went on, there's a website where the satellites are.

You can go to see satellites.

So the people that own satellites in space, they would get warned when there's solar flares, because the solar flares could take out their satellite.

You can turn them.

We're building shielding now, but you can turn them to face away.

But if it's strong enough, it'll have a devastating effect.

There was a really good written about that, where an adversary had three atomic explosions over the US, that created EMF pulses that burned everything out.

So people started starving, eating their dogs, their neighbors.

Back to my climbing trip, it seemed unusually hot to me, but it wasn't temperature-wise hot.

I was like, what is going on?

I should not feel this way on the mountain.

I was in great shape.

I don't know how I came about the satellite website where, oh, there was a huge amount of sunspot activity off the chart.

Maybe that's why I wasn't feeling good.

Solar radiation.

Yeah.

There's all this stuff, if you really think outside, I don't know if you're open to it, you can find it's quite legitimate government websites, especially with the satellites these days.

Yeah.

It's just our reliance on technology, if that goes away, if the technology goes away, then it's anarchy.

I can't remember that.

I think the book is called The Day After or something like that, but it's really fascinating to read because it becomes a doggy dog world.

You want the resources you used to have, so you're going to take it from your neighbor, you're going to migrate to places you hear that there's food and water.

Because if you run out of food and water, and everybody hordes guns these days, then you're going to have chaos.

You're speaking of if the technology goes down.

It fails, yeah.

Because we're used to it versus if we lived a 100 years ago, we wouldn't really miss it.

Yeah, there was a great Twilight Zone episode where the power went out after a meteorite flew over, probably from the 50s or so.

But this one house had lights, and so everybody was saying that's not right.

So they all wanted to go break into the house and get into the house and find out why he had power, and was he an alien?

Did he have anything to do with the meteorite, a spaceship?

It was a great episode.

It's about paranoia.

If you don't know what's going on, if you don't have access to the news as we do today, you're going to make stuff up.

You're going to go try to find out what is going on.

But if you can't call anybody, you can't watch TV or listen to the radio, you're stuck.

When your resources run out at home, you got to go find them and everybody else is doing that.

If they have more guns than you or more bullets than you, you're in a lot of trouble.

What advice would you give to someone who thinks they saw a UFO and people are skeptical of them?

Or maybe just let it go, you saw a UFO like you mentioned the people on the plane that day, you asked the pilot or the help on the airplane and the guy, we see UFOs.

But somebody who wanted to have it investigated more, maybe it's a landing or something like that or something, they're like, I really want to tell someone about this, but I don't know who and I don't know if I want to tell them.

Yeah, if it's a close encounter, if you just see a UFO that's not going to really go anywhere, if it's a light in the sky or if you have a close encounter of the first to fifth kind, if it's a close encounter of the third kind or greater.

You're speaking to this stuff like it's common knowledge.

All I know is the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Is this UFO Investigator or Blue Book come up with these kinds?

Dr.

Heineck came up with that.

The close encounter of the fifth kind is you talk or you see or encounter aliens.

The fourth kind, I think, is you see them.

I can't remember how it works.

The first kind is you see a UFO.

The second kind is you see a UFO up close.

Then you get to where you're seeing actual creatures.

But just seeing a UFO, it doesn't mean it's alien.

I mean, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of meteorological events, and there's a lot of things flying around that can fool you.

There's plenty of drones these days that look pretty strange, but they're still drones.

Unless it's a really weird encounter that is a close encounter with maybe being, sorry, my glasses are all fogged up.

Then you have, I mean, there's agencies you can afford to move on, APRO, there's the National Reporting Agency for Pilots.

There's plenty of resources to report it where people will look into it.

Because then you can correlate if it's a really good encounter and it'll last a while, you can correlate it with trying to find out if local radar picked it up, if there are other people that cited it, if there are reports in the paper, if there are multiple witnesses.

But if it's an individual seeing something up in the mountains or at their house or something, tell your friends, but if they don't believe you, that's fine.

Yeah.

So you mentioned seeing aliens.

Do you have an idea?

You won't have an exact statistics, but a guess.

You mentioned earlier a lot of these visits from UFOs might just be like our drones are not manned.

Do you have a guess at how many these days, like right now, might be manned versus unmanned alien, if the UFOs with actual features in them?

Well, I think it depends on how old the civilization is that's coming here.

I think the older they are, the less chance there's actually living bodies in there.

I have a friend, Ray Stanford, who has photos of actual creatures in craft, and I know that a lot of people are like, sure, but I've seen photos of some of them.

One of them looks like Yoda, kind of a big head with big ears.

That's what he calls them, big ears.

He calls another one Gort after Gort from The Day the Earth Stood Still.

Different races or all the same?

Yeah, different races.

I think that it's so hard to pin it down because there's very little evidence of actual creatures filmed or photographed.

There is some.

I mean, there's some that go way back.

There was one picture taken in Scotland of some green creature with long arms on a hillside that this whole encounter went with.

Then there's missing time.

There's an account from the 1700s in the United States.

I think it wasn't Ben Franklin, but somebody famous, John Adams or somebody, they were on a boat fishing and they lost two hours of time.

When they came to, instead of going downstream, they were upstream and they were missing a couple hours of time.

Speaking of which, I wanted to ask you about abductions.

People being abducted, they claim to be abducted.

Were they abducted under hypnosis?

They claim to remember stuff.

What's your experience with our knowledge about that?

Well, I had cases like that.

There's some interesting data that was a study by a couple of scientists that showed that people who said they had been abducted had some kind of alteration in their brain.

Some type of connections in their brain were different.

There's a case, the crash London case, where a woman, I think her sister and her son were in a car and saw a diamond-shaped object that was being chased by helicopters emitting a flame at the bottom.

They had got all poisoned by radiation.

She actually died later on, but she lost hair.

She went to the doctor, she went to the Air Force, she had radiation burns in her eyes or her hair.

Because she got out of the car when she got back to grab to handle her car, it burned her hand.

It takes a lot of radiation to do that.

There's a lot of cases like that.

It's just hard, abductions are hard to prove, but they're also hard to disprove.

Betty and Bernie Hill is a great example.

There's a lot of evidence that they knew something was going on because when she talked to the Air Force about that, they seemed to have a lot more knowledge about that than they let on.

That's just a touchy subject because you kind of jump in.

It would be because aliens are just curious, like a veterinarian or a scientist capturing a new species of some frog or some, would be why the reason abduction?

It could be.

It's hard to wrap your head around it.

Let me turn on the light here.

I don't know if it's getting dark.

There's a lot of people that won't touch that subject because it makes them sound nuts.

I don't discount it.

I just, it's hard.

It's so hard to prove that it's much harder to not seem like you're crazy than just seeing the UFO.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a guy named Darrell Sims.

He's a friend.

He's gotten a lot of the implants that people had, and the implants, when they take them out, a lot of times, when they take them in for somebody to analyze, they don't tell them what it's from, but they go, well, it's a piece of a meteorite.

And like, piece of a meteorite means it's off world.

But it was in somebody's leg or somebody's thumb or something like that.

And Dr.

Lear is another guy who pulled a couple out.

He was a foot doctor, but he, on film, when he tried to grab an implant in the guy's toe, I think, it moved away from the scalpel.

And he can keep it.

It just looks like a crystal or a rock, a sliver.

No, it looks like a little sliver of metal.

But they, you know, sometimes they're giving off a radio frequency, and sometimes they have nerve has grown onto it.

And a lot of the scientists that I've seen that have analyzed this are fascinated because usually when you get a foreign body, your body rejects it, like you get a bullet or something, you got a lot of issues because it's damaging, the body rejects it.

But with implants, it seems like nerve tissue grows around it, connects to it, doesn't reject it, kind of acknowledges it.

And a lot of them give off a frequency until you yank it out, and then it turns off.

And it's kind of what comes to mind is the implant is used so they like AI, so they can track, not just track you, they can see and hear what you're seeing and hearing because of the alien.

That's a theory about what they're for.

I don't know, it's just hard, as hard as it is to figure out the UFO subject, it's even harder when you start talking about adductions, that's why a lot of people just won't go there.

You have a hard time investigating that because you try to set up cameras, you try to get some type of images.

There was a thing about Bud Hopkins on Netflix recently that talked about one of those famous cases.

Who is that?

Bud Hopkins was a famous researcher.

He was an artist in New York.

There was a woman who got abducted out of her window supposedly in New York and was witnessed by people on the ground, very famous case.

And Netflix kind of did a little bit of a hatchet job on it, but there's some cases that are really solid with multiple witnesses and people like dreaming that they were with their neighbor sitting in some craft and then they talked to the neighbor and goes, I had that same dream, but you were sitting in a seat next to me, but I couldn't move my head, I couldn't talk to you, and there were a lot of children on board.

Some of the stories are really bizarre.

And once again, if an advanced civilization is doing that, because it seems like there's a compressed time, it seems like they can operate a minute to them might be three hours to us.

So when somebody's missing time, it disappeared for two hours, that could have been five minutes to them.

If you can manipulate gravity, as Einstein showed, you can manipulate time and space.

So if you can compress time into a second, it's really three hours, then you can do all kinds of things, and nobody would know if it's even occurred.

So I'm picturing a model here.

I'm trying to make a model.

Say, hypothetically, there's the black project people that have hijacked the technology.

All money is for their own benefit.

The military and our government are not part of that.

And then we have already three real aliens who are still coming to the planet.

How does that roll into the black project people that hijacked or have some technology already?

How are the black project people of today possibly interacting?

Are they going to want to keep the UFOs away?

Because they don't really need any more UFOs, or could they be working together?

Well, the black projects are still connected to the military.

They're just places you'll never hear about, places you'll never see people who never know their names.

I mean, it's so deep that it exists in the military industrial complex that Truman and Eisenhower warned us about.

But it's so deep and so well-guarded that you'll never know about it.

They, I'm sure that they know the things, they obviously know things they don't want to tell us, because either it's too frightening or will compromise national defense and security.

There is a gentleman, I can't mention his name, but he was really high ranked in the military.

He audited, he was so highly classified, and he audited the NSA, DIA, FBI years and years ago.

But I asked him about what he found and he told, he said, we're not in control at the very top.

I said, who's in control?

He wouldn't say anything, he just looked up.

Yeah.

I said, really?

He goes, and if that's the truth, if we're not in control, if there's another species that is in control of what goes on this planet, they're never going to tell us that, that's the last.

Do you mean another species?

Yeah.

Another civilization, human.

If there's something not human that's actually in control of things, what if this is a big Petri dish?

Earth is just, they came in modified genetics of apes or whatever and genetically modified humans.

Human history has some weird, our brains went from 800 CCs to 1600 CCs in a timeframe that evolution doesn't explain.

It got twice as big.

To which the, I keep calling black project, the deep, whatever you want to call it, the government, the part of our government that has the technology.

Military industrial complex.

Okay.

If what you're saying is, they are controlled by a non-human entity, then they are still working with the UFOs that are coming to the planet today.

They are still working with them.

Could be.

They could be trying to trade.

We'll let you arm some humans or take some humans to study.

Give us this tech if you help us travel space.

It's never because they want to save humanity or feed the poor.

It's never for humanitarian reasons.

This would literally be like a lot of movies including The Men in Black.

Yeah.

I mean, humans are such a flawed species.

It's sad that, I mean, look at the planet today, but all the technology we have, you have the four wealthiest people in the world tied into this administration, who could probably solve world hunger right now with their wealth.

But instead, they're building penis-shaped rockets to the moon.

Tell me about it.

That's why I'm not an aerospace engineer anymore, because I would hear about the projects where the money goes.

I'm like, why?

How much money?

We got other problems to solve as engineers.

I know people that work for SpaceX and they left because of the just the vanity and the disregard for.

It wouldn't be a problem if we spent the money doing that.

It's just when they tell you, oh, yeah, we don't have pencils for teachers or crayons.

We're going to cut art class or band or whatever because we don't have the money, and no, I call, not true.

We're one of the few countries that doesn't have universal health care.

They're the perfect example, and we argue about it for a decade and we still don't have free health care.

Ben, I don't know how much time you have.

I could listen to you talk all day.

I wanted to ask you if there's anything we haven't talked about you want to add, that we haven't mentioned?

I put a lot of research into the book.

Tony and I, if you want to read the book, it's on Amazon, it's called Not of This World in 1964, Sikora UFO Landing with Humanoids.

That's an example of good research.

I believe that a couple of the books on Roswell are worth reading because all the military people talked to the people, Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall, and people that investigated that, they got filmed and recorded the military.

Saying what it actually was, that started the whole process, that started the cover-up.

They started learning how to cover this up.

But do your own homework.

There's so much crap on the Internet now.

I see these videos.

I usually pop in and just write fake and then go off to the next video because it's so obvious that a lot of these UFO videos are faked.

They're from people, like normal people trying to get out, get a lot of hits on their YouTube channel or something, get famous.

They got a lot of hits or somebody saw it and go, wow, this is real and they repost it, not doing any homework.

You used to be able to look at the metadata to check, because the metadata tell you what cameras use, where it was filmed, but we know how to manipulate metadata now, so you can fake all of that.

It's just that that's why I say if you really want to get some real good footage of real UFOs, get it yourself.

There was a gentleman that we did in a conference that we presented.

He got a high-speed camera, took about, I don't know, they're up to a million frames a second now.

You can actually photograph lightning coming down real slow, but I think his was 700 or 7,000 frames per second.

He put it on a table and turned it on for three seconds.

He caught like five objects moving.

One moved, ejected something, another one came across, ejected something.

There could be things right above your head flying around at hypersonic speeds that don't create a sound wave because they're shielded.

But they could be this big, that could be UFOs that are that big.

But they could be everywhere flying around and you never see them because they're traveling so fast and use the technology that's undetectable.

I'd say for people that don't believe in it, before you dismiss it, do your own homework.

Most of those people, they've done no homework.

That's okay.

I'm not judging them.

It's just fascinating how these are smart people too.

No, UFOs aren't real.

No, this or that.

I saw that hoax.

It's their prerogative.

What's next for you, Ben?

In April, Tony and I and Katie Page are speaking at a conference in Albuquerque called Alien Exploration, I think.

So, April 8th through 10th, we're speaking in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which will be the first time that we will present the Socorro case in New Mexico where it occurred.

There's about 12 speakers there, a lot of good people.

It's the best place.

I actually lived in Santa Fe for 20 years.

I love New Mexico.

It's beautiful.

That's my favorite mountain.

One of my favorite, the Sandias, my favorite mountain in the whole world.

I love the energy around there.

I have to tell you, I have seen some really weird stuff.

Yeah.

In deep New Mexico, because I used to drive a lot for work, sometimes super early in the morning or late night.

I've seen some weird stuff, not just the UFOs, the government, whoever it is, like unmarked vehicles, in convoys just going through stoplights like they don't exist, unmarked, very nice equipment.

Yeah.

A lot of strange things.

You're in the right place.

Yeah.

It's going to be good.

You can Google it.

I think it's called AI.

Explorations in April in Albuquerque.

I'll tell you real quick, when I was in Denver visiting Tony, the co-author of the book, we were doing a night watch, and for some reason, sometimes my grandmother was a little bit psychic, and sometimes I seem to display some of that.

But we saw a commercial airliner flying over, and for some reason I said, don't watch a commercial airliner, watch what follows it.

And so we and Tony were looking at this thing, and sure enough, it's probably at 35,000 feet.

There's this light behind it, it's trailing it.

I'm like, okay, that's a little unusual.

But then the light goes like this, the plane goes way over here, and the light catches up to it in like two seconds.

And I'm thinking, holy cow, what the hell, and it got right on the back of it.

And I've seen footage of UFOs where they fly right behind it, where they really can't detect it, and sometimes the greater, but that was really interesting.

That was a true UFO because of the way it was moving, and it was kind of like, and then when it caught back up to the plane, it caught up, it must have gone a mile or so ahead of it, but it caught up in a second or two.

So, you know, keep your eyes to the sky for sure.

You think that it's just got nothing better to do or fascinated by, it must have seen an airplane before.

Why do you think it behaved that way?

It's, I think some of these things are automated, and they're trying to figure out if it's friendly, if it's one of theirs or, there was the famous case in the Japan airline that was a cargo plane, was flying and a big walnut shaped craft started following it, that was bigger than a battleship.

And the pilot called two military bases and they both said, look, we have it, we have a couple other objects.

And the thing ejected three objects and it kept following it.

And the guy said, and he's in a 747, he said, make a turn.

And so for that thing to make a turn, it takes them miles to make a turn.

This object, which was probably five times the size of the 747, turned inside of his turn.

And there's this remote viewer called Joe McConaugle, who was the number one remote viewer of Fort Belvoir during the remote viewing program.

He remote viewed that and he said, that he thinks that the reason that object was following that plane is it thought it was one of the objects that it had manufactured that was supposed to be sucked into that craft and repair it.

And then it put it out again.

And it sent three other craft out to look it over.

And they realized, no, that's not one of ours.

And then it moved off.

Followed the plane for like an hour and a half.

And the guy drew pictures of it.

It was on radar.

The guy that pulled the radar down, that was supposed to turn it all into the CIA, I'm sure was it visited him.

He put that on the internet.

And it's out there for people to see.

And you can see the track to that thing.

So the deeper you get into it, the weirder it gets, the more crazy the stories are.

But there's something going on for sure.

And it's not all human.

So last question.

When I started this podcast, I can get way out there, mind you.

But I also, I can get real negative and really problem-orientated.

Just worry about stuff.

I always want to leave people with the positive intention and the love or the, okay, I know about this.

Instead of panicking, what's the positive intention of knowing it?

What can I do with it?

And stay positive.

Move forward, use what we're speaking of to move forward in your life in a positive way and not to panic and be negative?

Or do you know what to be crazy?

What advice would you give listeners to use this in a positive way?

Well, several people have had close encounters kind of say the same thing, and it kind of goes on the basis of life is the whole purpose is to love and be loved.

And that's it.

That's what life is all about.

Contribute to the world, be a good person, love and spread love.

It's like the Beatles say, the love you get is equal to the love you send is equal to the love you get.

And so that's what it's all about.

We're not there yet.

Hopefully the human race will survive itself.

But just be a good person, do good things, try to help other people.

There's a lot of people that don't have what we have.

It'd be so ironic if people, including myself, are just wondering, well, the alien is going to help us with some technology, make my life better.

It'd be so ironic if all the aliens said is what you just said.

The most important thing, humans.

This is it.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

Who knows?

They might step out one day and talk to us.

If you ever have seen that movie, the one shoe where it lands on the White House lawn, that was the whole point.

They were going to destroy mankind because we were so bad, but he basically said, clean your act up and we won't do that, but you're on the wrong path.

We've been on the wrong path ever since 1947.

I hope we learn our lesson because we're not going to travel the stars until we solve the problems we have here.

Yeah.

Well, it's really difficult.

Gets me back to why I have to be careful to stay out of the gutter in terms of being negative, because when you have a deep state, what's deep military?

Military industrial complex.

I mean, there's nothing I can do about it.

Right.

Yet it is, I do want to make the world a better place.

So I think the first step is to be aware of stuff.

Yeah.

Then that is what it is.

But I'm still going to be a nice, live my life in a loving way.

But being aware of if it's the first step.

It's because you saw it on the Internet, doesn't it?

Yeah, and be leery of misinformation to make you feel negative about UFOs.

Because if it comes down to it, they don't want, I mean, it's not conspiracy.

They have their own objective and desires, and they're going to use the news to spin it their way if you start becoming too enlightened about stuff, right?

Yeah, the most interesting thing that you see is people that are, there's no such thing as UFO, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Then they have their own sighting.

That's a whole different story.

There's a lot of people, they have their own encounter, they have their own sighting.

I didn't believe this, and then all of a sudden, let me tell you what I saw.

The flipping is, it's just like anything else.

Until it happens to you, you have no idea what's going on.

Until I saw that Larry King.

I was on the fence, and then especially when the Larry King got censored, but no other Larry King episode got taken down, and Larry King, which I'm like, did you all see that?

That's what kind of did it for me.

Yeah.

Although I wasn't a disbeliever before, I had no real opinion.

So yeah, I think something does have to happen, but your book sounds great.

I'm going to put it in the show notes, and I'm also going to put in the show notes to the April conference in Albuquerque.

If you want to send me a link, I can send you a link back.

I can actually, I think, send me a message like you did before, and I'll send you a link.

So for work, I traveled through Roswell a lot, but the first time, it's kind of like my first trip to Los Alamos on work.

I was like, are there going to be UFOs and aliens here?

It's so commercial in Disneyland.

The town of Roswell, they're capitalizing on the whole tourist thing.

It was kind of silly, really.

Go to the Trinity.

Go to the Trinity site.

What is the Trinity site?

It's where we've exploded the first atomic bomb.

I don't know if I want to go there because one of the things I used to do is sample soil for radiation for clients in New Mexico who are worried about that in there.

Well, there's a lot of uranium there, so all the Geiger counters on all the investigations we've done in New Mexico go off because the uranium in the ground.

It's pretty much everywhere.

Yeah, that's why I'm saying I have Geiger counters and I don't want to say no.

It's an interesting site.

If you saw Oppenheimer, that's where that all took place.

Yeah.

Well, it was one of my celebrity clients, and I won't say names.

They own a lot of property because it's beautiful, New Mexico, and concerned about that because back in the day, they would do a nuclear test wherever the wind blew.

It didn't matter out in the West.

It was a valid concern.

Ironically, if your Geiger counter goes off like it did, it's pretty clear as a problem.

Ironically, we are testing the soil and what's the baseline?

I called the, I somehow got actually on the phone, environmental department for New Mexico, the real like whose job it would be.

We don't know, Daniel, we've been trying to get money for years to do a survey and get a baseline for what the radiation of soil would be, don't have it.

Unless your Geiger counter goes berserk.

It's the Wild West.

Yeah.

Well, great talking to you, Ben.

I appreciate your time.

I think you're the real thing.

You're definitely a smart.

It was a great conversation, a lot of actual stuff.

So I hope listeners enjoy it.

Yeah.

Appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me.

All right.

Take care.