Think Differently. Solve the Impossible.

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Investigating the Unknown: A Skeptic's Search for Evidence Beyond Death

A conversation with Liz Entin

For most of her life, Liz Entin assumed death was the end of consciousness. When her father was diagnosed with terminal cancer, however, she found herself asking a question she had never seriously considered before: What if that assumption was wrong?

Rather than turning to faith or accepting extraordinary claims, Liz approached the question as an investigation. Her journey became less about proving an afterlife and more about learning how to evaluate evidence when science has not yet reached definitive answers.
 

The Journey Began with a Question, Not a Belief

Liz's search did not begin with mediumship or spirituality. It began with grief and a desire to determine whether there was any rational alternative to permanent extinction. Her curiosity first led her to Einstein's theory of relativity and the idea that reality might be more flexible than everyday experience suggests.

As her research expanded, she began studying children's reported past-life memories, near-death experiences, and scientific investigations into consciousness. Throughout the process, she resisted the temptation to reach quick conclusions, preferring instead to collect evidence piece by piece.

"The thought of never ever again having one of the most important people in your life was just more than I could handle."

“The time travel was just the thought that first opened my mind to maybe the way we perceive reality is not as set in stone.”
 

Following the Evidence Instead of Defending a Conclusion

One of the strongest themes throughout the conversation is Liz's commitment to skepticism. Even after receiving medium readings that she found compelling, she continued searching for flaws in the evidence. She concealed her identity during readings, used aliases, looked for opportunities for fraud, and intentionally sought out researchers attempting to study these claims under controlled conditions.

Rather than asking whether she believed in mediums, the conversation repeatedly returned to a different question: How would we test these claims? Neuroscientific studies comparing brain activity during psychic and mediumistic readings, certification programs designed to reduce bias, and structured research protocols all became examples of attempts to apply scientific methods to subjects often dismissed without investigation.

"I was doing all this research and I was like, 'There's got to be a catch.'"

“It's like drops in the bucket of evidence.”
 

Defining the Question Before Drawing Conclusions

Several times during the interview, the discussion shifted away from belief and toward definitions. Ghost sightings, apparitions, hauntings, psychic readings, mediumship, and cold reading are often grouped together in popular culture, yet each represents a different claim requiring different standards of evidence.

This distinction mirrors a broader principle of problem solving: before deciding whether something is true or false, it's important to define exactly what is being evaluated. The conversation consistently emphasized separating anecdote from research and distinguishing entertainment techniques from scientific investigation.

Perhaps the most revealing aspect of Liz's journey is that she didn't simply interview researchers—she participated herself. She attended workshops, volunteered with research organizations, and even experimented with developing mediumistic abilities, not because she expected success, but because firsthand experience might reveal something that observation alone could not.

“I was pretty scared I was going to find the catch that shatters everything.”
 

The Bigger Question Isn't the Afterlife—It's Consciousness

By the end of the conversation, the focus had shifted beyond mediumship entirely. The more fundamental mystery is consciousness itself.

Modern neuroscience has made remarkable progress in understanding the brain, yet there is still no universally accepted explanation for how subjective experience emerges from physical matter. Likewise, memory remains incompletely understood. Rather than arguing that this proves consciousness survives death, the discussion highlighted an important point: both explanations contain unanswered questions.

Using analogies from engineering and computing, the conversation explored how digital systems store and retrieve information with clearly understood mechanisms. The human brain, by contrast, still lacks a complete explanation for how memories are encoded, stored, and recalled. That observation doesn't validate any particular theory - it serves as a reminder that uncertainty exists on both sides of the debate.

Liz concluded by emphasizing the value of remaining grounded while continuing to investigate. Rather than treating uncertainty as something to fear, she views it as an invitation for further research, better technology, and more rigorous scientific inquiry.

“Neuroscientists who are convinced consciousness is created by the brain still can't explain it. It's just as much of a mystery.”

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Further Reading & Resources

Website: WTF Just Happened https://www.wtfjusthappened.net

Elizabeth Entin's book:
WTF Just Happened?! A Sciencey-Skeptic Explores Grief, Healing, and Evidence of an Afterlife
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BCXKS9RV

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What If Your Memories Aren't Stored in Your Brain?

Exploring Evidence of Life After Death With Liz Entin

Exploring Evidence of Life After Death.

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Transcript

My guest today is Liz Entin. She's the author of WTF Just Happened, A Sciencey Skeptic Explores Grief, Healing, and Evidence of an Afterlife.

She talks about her research on the possibility of life after death and experiences having readings done with psychic medians as part of that research. Her journey investigating life after death began after the loss of her dad.

She says she was blown away by the evidence that supports there being life after death. Today, we're going to talk about what that evidence is and the conclusions she came to. Welcome to my show, Liz.

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

So to start, give me the backstory on your dad's death and why and how you got started investigating life after death.

Yeah.

So my dad passed, unfortunately, in 2015. I was raised atheist, skeptical, logical, and I was always culturally Jewish, but never believed in God. I still actually don't.

And I just, in that desperation, when it was clear nothing was going to work and he was going into hospice, I had a very first thought. And it was that so much of science fiction ends up coming true. Like look at us on Zoom.

If you look at old science fiction. Yeah, you see stuff like this, like constantly it's coming true. So I had a thought, well, if that's possible, could time travel be possible?

So I started to delve into that. And what's absolutely mind-blowing is it's possible. It's not practical, but theoretically it's highly possible.

In the sense that if we were to build a spaceship somehow and travel it close to the speed of light, and you took two twins, I'm gonna have the exact timing and numbers wrong, but the concept right.

So if you took two twins and you put one on this rocket ship traveling at close to the speed of light, and the other stayed on Earth, the one twin, say, five years would pass, who was on the rocket ship, and the one staying here 20 years would pass.

That's Einstein.

Yeah. But that's time travel. It's cool that you got an open mind.

Oh, yeah. What made you, did you want to know that your dad's in your place, or did you not get to say last goodbyes?

I thought you wanted me to tell the story of how I even.

Okay. Sorry. Sorry.

Okay. Okay.

But no, I can jump. I just, yeah. So then my next thought was if time travel is possible, and the most, yeah, I'm sorry.

I mean, I can not, it's just that I like to go from even exploring, it was as a possibility to think it was absolutely zero chance. That's what made me, that was the first thing that.

So I try to put myself in someone's shoes, like get in their head. What am I seeing? What am I hearing?

Like your dad died. In that moment, did you, did you, I mean, you or you saying it was a long time after you didn't miss him, you were just thinking about space travel and time travel.

This was when he was sick and it was clear he wasn't going to get better. And I felt a desperation. I mean, it was such a brutal confrontation with mortality.

Like, when you spend, you know yourself and everyone you love is going to die. When you think there's zero chance that you'll ever exist again, it's so shattering.

Yeah, yeah. That's what really started you thinking about the whole, maybe there's more to life or more to.

Well, it started first with like a desperation. I didn't think there was any chance of there being more to life. I just thought, what can I do while he was in hospice?

So finding this out about time travel led to the next thought. If the thing that is the most factual, and I guess if you want me to get a little to the emotional state, I was just shattered.

The thought of never ever again having one of the most important people in your life was just more than I could handle.

At the same time, again, never having any concept of anything that there could realistically be an afterlife, it's like this confrontation of everything, like I'm going to die one day.

All of death felt like so much more of a reality, if that makes sense. And so the first thought I came to-

So you started thinking about concepts like time travel and life after death.

Well, I didn't even think about life after death right away. When I first thought of time travel, because life after death, I mean, that was just something that wouldn't even be a concept to think about.

So the thought I had was if time travel is possible, would there be some way to get into the future?

You know, great, great, great, great, great grandkids, take him way into the future, and when medicine is a whole other level, and people can live a lot longer.

I understand now why you focused on time travel first, and then you had that idea. So the idea that he passes, and then somehow, tell me your logic with the time travel, what you were going to do. You knew he was going to die.

Right.

So it- Go ahead. Well, he was in hospice, so it was a hope that somehow, someone way in the future could somehow get him from hospice, take him to 2,000 years in the future, when medicine is a whole other level and people are living a lot longer.

Interesting idea.

Yeah.

In other words, not a one way trip, but literally coming and going as needed.

Let me go into the future now and heal myself, then I'll be back.

I didn't think we would necessarily come back. I didn't know. I mean, this was, it was like, I literally was like, this is as logical a plan as it is talking to the doctors with medicine.

But you got me to thinking, this is great.

I love people who like, you just stretched my mind for a little bit here. So an idea I had, I'm trying not to tangent off here.

Go ahead.

Another one is this idea that we only see certain colors because we're looking at a certain frequency and we're only, I mean, it's overwhelming if we want to see everything at once.

So another idea is there's this other dimension and we just cross over. We need to do come back. We didn't really leave.

We just, we're not visible anymore to the people. So maybe I could go there and get well and come back. And I didn't really leave.

I just changed. I just changed who can see me and what dimension or frequency I'm in. It can go, it can get pretty, it can get pretty deep here.

But in the end, I think, for whatever reason, we don't, we can't, most people can't see that. Some people can see ghosts. So let's jump into your evidence you found when you finally got to just focusing on afterlife or the topic of afterlife.

Well, it's interesting because I also, I'm sorry.

I thought of other dimensions too, because I was reading that String Theory. So all of that, yeah, that was kind of what got me down to the afterlife. So.

Well, you just still be down.

I'll get a process for, okay, I'll follow. So afterlife, tell me about your research on that. And I think it seems like you started with going to mediums, psychics.

The very first thing actually, it took me a while to get to mediums, but I can, if you want to jump into that, I can kind of rush through what got me there.

Tell me the other bits.

I'm going to keep a wide mind now because I didn't know you were into, it's cool. I didn't realize the time travel threw me for a little loop. I thought we were tantruming, but I get it now.

Start wherever you like.

The time travel was just the thought that the first thing that opened my mind to maybe the way we perceive reality. Once I learned about Einstein's theory of time relativity, the way we perceive reality is not as set in stone.

I had a whole course, there was an aerospace engineer, a whole semester on advanced physics that was nothing but what you're speaking of.

Oh, wow. So you know a bazillion times more than me on this.

Yeah. Also, it's kind of disappointing higher education, FYI. You know, you have a whole semester on this, and it's shocking how little they know.

And then they're like, why did we have a class on this? You guys just need to put us through torture because then you can fail the class because they don't know what they're talking about.

These Einstein equations are, in fact, I think one of them recently, they said is they rescinded or they're not really sure it's true. This whole idea that if you go faster than the speed of light, that blah, blah, blah.

I think that comes into question. But in any, yeah, I'm familiar with the idea. The idea on travel.

Yeah.

Yeah. If you go faster than the speed of light, that was part of what I was reading. You're like going backwards in time because information is stored in light.

So I mean, all of these were making me think the world.

Actually not really. It's the relative, it's all relative speed. It's like when you're in an airplane and you get up to go to the lavatory, you're going to be going 500 miles per hour.

And you're just walking down the aisle, right? Like the earth spinning around the sun going 20,000 miles an hour, or whatever the actual speed is, people out there probably can cite it. I get other things to keep in my head.

Point is, it doesn't seem like we're going 20,000 miles an hour. So that was the concept of the time and not quite literally. I think, personally, time travel is more easier than that.

I think it's like you were getting at, let's just go into another dimension. It's like you have a CD, and on that CD is a book. Just flip to the page in the book, you don't need to go to speed light.

I think it's more simpler. Yeah. Or to put it another way, there are more than one waste of time travel.

Just like you can fly in an airplane and walk or go in a car. Maybe instead of going to speed light, it's really hard to do. It takes a lot of fuel or whatever.

Just go there. We don't know, right?

I don't know.

It's good to be able to give an open mind, at least we can have discussions and not get too bent on there. This is what I believe. I respect it.

Cool.

Right. All right.

Well, I got a different idea. Can we talk?

Exactly.

So pick up where you are getting it.

So after life. So my very next thought after all this of like quite a few weeks of time travel, reading and string theory was, at this point, I assumed consciousness was created by our brain neurons.

So I thought if consciousness is created by our brain neurons, and that happens to create me one time, and at this point, I thought you live once, you live once as one person, and you're obliterated permanently.

But then I started to think, if you think of the concept of eternity, eternal big bangs, big crunches, the amount of Goldilocks planets that keep getting discovered, and if you think of it, again, it's just happening eternally with big bangs, big

crunches, it may, it seems almost impossible, probabilistically, I think I butchered pronouncing that word, but that another set of brain neurons would not come together and create another person, and you would get to experience being another person.

Well, the big bang theory to me is, it's a theory, people remember that.

A lot of people don't. They forget the theory part. And to me, that's just a pop-out explanation by academia.

We have to teach kids something, and this is what we got. Makes the most sense.

It's too bad that it actually gets beaten into their heads, like almost like this is a fact, and that they believe it because they're like, well, what other explanation could there be? And they stop thinking, like, they quit. They just quit stock.

Right. So, yeah. You just rattle the stuff off a lot.

My mind tangents to a lot of, okay, I know it to me, but there's another explanation for everything, right? Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And to think that we know everything now too is ridiculous.

But nevertheless, like I think a big bang, at least the concept that there's constantly universes and galaxies whether they birth and die or you know.

But so then I had that thought and I just had a flash of a thought, if that's the case, is there somehow some way that I can't even begin to understand that any of these memories were stored and carried over?

And I re-incarnation or stored and carried over into another body. Somehow travel or something.

I was thinking into another body. Like if you're a brain set of neurons created like me now is Liz. And let's say 500 years and other brain set of neurons came together and it got to be an experience I was experiencing of a totally different person.

Is there somehow some way in that any memories of being Liz could have transferred? I couldn't begin to understand how.

And I Googled that and that's when everything changed because that was where I found the first solid set of evidence of an afterlife. And what I also usually call non-local consciousness, that our consciousness is not actually created by a brain.

And there is where I found the research of doctors, Jim Tucker and the late Ian Stevenson, Dr. Ian Stevenson, I should say, they are professors of psychiatry at the University of Virginia.

They are traditional psychiatrists and they study cases of kids with past life memories from a fact-based methodology. And that was the most life-changing thing. So I tell them.

So that's a great word.

I'm familiar with it. Non-localized. Explain that to people in terms of memories as you're meaning the brain's not storing the memories, the memories are not in the brain or the body, they're outside the body, meaning non-localized.

They're possibly everywhere, anywhere but in the body or everywhere. Kind of like when you speak like we are now, the sound never really stops. It's propagating the space for eternity.

You just can't hear it. So maybe you're even tapping into that. The same thing you're seeing right now, the light reflects off the ground, you see the mountains, but that reflection is going out into space for an eternity.

Somebody else could see the mountains. A billion years from now, just like you're seeing a star, we all forget like, oh, the stars we're seeing in the sky, that light started hundreds of millions of years ago, and we're just seeing it.

It could be something like that. There could be a lot of scientific explanations, but what Liz is saying is there's experts that are actually open-minded, and the term non-localized, that's what it means. Right, Liz?

Yeah, non-local, that is not created by a brain.

Yeah, it's stored somewhere else and entangles with our brain and for this experience of being a person.

The brain is just seeing things. It's just seeing it. It's not creating it.

You didn't even just see in the sunset. You're not creating the sunset.

Right. Yeah. And we're seeing.

Storing that memory so you think you're storing the memory.

That's what we're talking about. Your experience, how I saw the sunset, I think I'm storing that someplace.

Yeah. And yeah. And then also, as you touched upon too, we're just in this human experience, where it's just seeing this tiny, like minuscule portion of reality, that is limited by time.

The location we're at, the way our bodies are made up, that we only visually see what's right in front of us at a certain distance and only see certain things on the color spectrum.

The colors are just something our brain makes up, but really they're just types of light reflection, like all these things.

But at this point, I found these child psychiatrists who were setting cases of kids with past life memories, and they were getting positive results. They were matching up kids with people who'd passed away.

They just were taking such a logical approach.

Now, the kids are the interesting subject matters because they're not old enough to have read history books and be pre-programmed with all the stuff they learned. Like they don't know anything yet. They're so young.

Is that the idea? They can't trick us. They don't know.

They don't know the answers. They're too young. Is that why it's an interesting population to study?

Exactly.

I mean, and it's not even at least as a devious mindset of, oh, they won't trick us. It's, you know, there could be people who honestly believe that they're perceiving a past life. But you don't remember everything.

You've learned where and how. So, you know, you take, for example, past life regressions. They're happening cases where they trace like very detailed facts back to a person, but that is incredibly rare.

So you can't really take an adult, even a teenager, having a past life regression very seriously.

Maybe too, because kids haven't forgotten. Like I can't remember what I was doing when I was three or four years old or five or six. And the transference, the past life memory is still fresh in their mind, maybe.

Maybe that's why the kids are more interesting to study.

It's just that they can't from a factual basis. Although, yes, a lot of kids tend to forget the past lives around five years old. That's kind of a, I mean, I, yeah, I have a lot of memories of those ages.

And there's some like, maybe I never would have thought of it as like related till I started delving in, but nothing that's worthy of studying, or nothing that can be called evidence-based.

But if you're to do say a past life regression, we at this point as adults have so much knowledge of history. We, tons of it stored unconsciously.

What is past life? I know the answer, but there are people that don't like, what is past life regression?

Oh, yeah. So that's when you're taken into a meditation, and you're taken back to remember past lives and mixed feelings about it. I mean, hypnotized meditation, hypnotized, a type of like deep hypnosis.

Yeah, I think it's very interesting. I'd be, you know, I cannot say whether it's people are genuinely remembering past lives or parts of them, or maybe remembering parts and filling in with like details of what we know.

Yeah. So you started researching, talking to the experts. Did you talk to the people doing that with these kids, working with the kids?

No, I didn't.

I just read every single thing by Dr. Jim Tucker and Dr. Ian Stevenson.

And I found they were part of a division, the Division of Perceptual Studies, which is a research group at the University of Virginia. And they're studying all this kind of weird stuff, if I can remember a better word.

And so once you kind of find one of them, you start finding them all.

So I was finding at the University of Virginia, they were studying things such as near-death experiences, which is when people pass away and then are medically resuscitated and come back and they have remarkable. Just, I mean, it's insane stories.

Some are memories, some have experiences that they call in the research for erratical NDEs, which means they're verified.

Like maybe they floated to another completely different part of the hospital where they saw their family and overheard what their family was saying. I mean, just that's a whole intense body of research.

Then also through this, I found that there were people researching psychic mediums, including, well, they're doing some of that at the University of Virginia. But the main group I found, because once you find one of them, you find them all.

I found the Windbridge Institute, which was founded by Dr. Julie Bichel and her husband, Mark Bacuzzi. Dr.

Bichel was a pharmacologist, very logic, data-driven. After the passing of her mother, when Dr. Bichel was only 23, she not expecting anything from it, got a medium reading and it blew her away.

And so, you know, long, long story short, she's the founder of the Wind Bridge Institute, which conducts up to quintuple blinded studies on mediums. And I've mainly researched mediums just because they're the ones that are the most accessible.

You can't really contact and join, you know, in the laboratory experiments very easily, but you can always get a medium reading.

So I read on your website or in your book description, the word seance too. What's the difference between a seance or so special? It's you do a seance with a psychic, right?

Yes, a psychic, mediums and psychics are actually different, which I can explain.

Yeah, tell me the difference.

Okay, well, all the theory is, or the knowledge at this point is all mediums are psychic, but not all psychics are mediums.

A psychic reading is a reading, let's say someone was to sit down with you. This is what you think of when you think of like, I think most people think of this, like they tell you about your future, your dating life, your health, money.

It's about you and your life and energy of a living person, or life plan of living person. It's reading somebody's mind. Mediumship is communicating with what, you know, a non-local consciousness, someone who's passed away.

So, yeah, and then what's a seance? Okay. So a seance is a very specific type of mediumship.

It's one medium will usually be there with a group of people, and they'll try to call in people who've passed away and they'll be-

Well, there has to be a group of people, the difference, or one difference.

Yeah. Well, it's one difference, because you can go to a group medium reading, and that's where you see them on the platform, and they're reading, they'll pick some people in the audience to read. That's not a seance.

It would be sitting in a circle, and say they're channeling in people who've passed away or spirits, and I mean, the seances I've seen were completely fraudulent, so I can't personally speak from a genuine one, but I've heard people who've assessed

that there are genuine ones out there. The ones I saw were not, but objects will move. Yeah.

Don't do a seance, but a medium is okay, a psychic is okay, but not a seance, and you experience two fixed or fraudulent or just not real.

The one I saw, I witnessed one person who conducted two seances. I did not think there was even an ounce of genuineness to them. I've heard other people go to seances that I respect have concluded the same thing.

But there are a few people I highly respect in this field who have gone to other seances and they've concluded they're genuine. But that's very rare.

The psychic mediums, they do have validity, you believe. There are some valid psychic mediums.

I think, yes, I think there are a percent, a small percent that are able to do what they claim.

The thing is, if consciousness, if the answer is that our consciousness is not created by brain, but downloaded by it, that means all of us have some form of communication.

Psychic mediums that are really good are able to do it at a whole other level than the average person. I think like everything else, we have varying degrees of abilities, but it just means it's how our consciousness-

The way I picture the non-localized memories, is it just picture a filing cabinet floating in the sky, like the cloud, like Apple Cloud. I go to the cloud, that's where I store my memories.

Well, somebody else can do it too, if I let them, so I give permission to a valid psychic medium, and she goes into my cloud. I die, my body is gone, my data is still in the cloud. Next body I go into, I'm still using the same cloud.

Until I decide someday, you know what, I'm going to change my password, delete my files, and one of my theories is in terms of the past life, when I go to hit the delete, because I'm like, you know what, I've got too many, kind of like Marlon Brando,

old Johnny Depp a long time ago. Dude, you got to be careful how many jobs you take. You can only keep so many actors in your head until you're going to kind of forget who you are and kind of lose yourself.

So maybe we purge, and when we purge, maybe it's one little photo or something in the filing cabinet, the cloud, it's the same cloud. We still have our same cloud, our consciousness. But maybe we didn't empty the wastebasket completely.

We go to the next body somehow with what's that little picture of that photo. That's one of my, I was to paint a picture in a black box, like how's it work?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I picture it similar to the cloud too.

Then you can go find the, oh, you got to go to speed a lot of this, that do the math to it. I'm just trying to, in my head, lay a foundation, draw it on paper, and then build it and explain it. So where were we?

Medianship, so maybe they get into the cloud. And then also you've done some haunted houses, photographs, electron EMF, stuff like that too, in terms of ghost and whatnot?

Oh, yeah. I took a class on that. I haven't actually attended any.

And I met with a ghost hunter and learned about it, and I took a class on it. So I'm knowledgeable, but not from, not an expert, and I haven't had a personal experience on a physical ghost hunt, though. I'd be curious to see, but I am-

If you find anything interesting, since you've done, you do a lot of research, starting with time travel and then thinking about it, and then with the kids, with past lives.

Your first hit, gut reaction on this ghost stuff, was there any like, oh, that makes sense? Time traveler is just kind of like, maybe that's not worth spending the time on. What would you think about your experience, even though it was limited?

With-

So it was pretty early on that I learned about it. At this point, I think there's definitely something to it. A lot is fake.

The EMF meters, no one really knows. I don't think those are as strong as people are saying from my understanding. I have no one really knows.

They don't work.

Do you?

They don't work. Okay.

There's always an alternative explanation.

That's what I was getting to.

So they say, oh, the thing, go, yeah, your refrigerator just cycled and it's picking up the fields from the wire in your wall. That's currents flowing now. It just turned on a field or, you know, your neighbors have a light bulb on or something.

Then there's net current on the wires. Yeah. There's always an explanation for the Gauss meters.

That's from what I, yeah.

Yeah.

And the cameras, infrared cameras too. Look at that heat pattern or that cold pattern. They don't even know how that instrument is working or reading.

It's an anomaly that they can't explain. It's not a ghost. I've never found one with the.

But I do have them. I do believe there are people that can see ghosts.

I think so too. Yeah. And there's a difference.

There's two different kinds. This I thought was interesting and this makes sense. I learned about this from Lloyd Arbok, and he's probably going to kill me if he hears this.

I can't remember which is which. One is a haunting and one is an apparition. I believe the haunting is the one where it's not actually conscious.

It's like a stored experience. Like if someone sees a repetitive, like you'll hear someone seeing a ghost and they'll say, we see a lady in a black dress walking along a cliff every night at a certain time.

The thought is she's not actually conscious. It's like a recording of a place memory. Yeah.

If you're watching a recording of a Zoom, the person isn't there, as opposed to an apparition, which is an actual consciousness that you can communicate and interact with. And those seem to be the two different types.

And yeah, again, according, the meters seem to be pretty irrelevant.

It's interesting. I had never, don't think I'd ever had somebody read that or the distinction you just mentioned. Because the people that see ghost, I'm not sure if they know if they're seeing a repeat pattern.

I think actually probably most of it is. For example, the natives in New Mexico, where I spent a lot of time in Santa Fe, New Mexico. One time I got off the plane in Los Angeles, business trip.

A guy in a suit, they're real professional. And he goes, I'm from Santa Fe. I don't know how it came out of his mouth, because this is not something we talk about with strangers, but he lives in New Mexico and he's, I think he works on a reservation.

He's like, yeah, we see, kind of like the Trail of Tears. We see natives from the past and how they're suffering and they're being, going through some rough times. Well, that was way in the past.

They must be seeing a repeat, an apparition, as you said, right?

I would think so if they keep seeing the same thing and there's no interaction and it's the repetitive thing. I mean, I don't know for sure, but yeah.

Versus the ghost and trying to think of how many people I've known that I think have actually spoken to real ghost, I think not less or nobody comes to mind. What about you?

Yeah, some of the researchers like Lloyd Arbuck, who's done, you know, he's the one who took the class from, and he's kind of one of the expert parapsychologists. He's also a mentalist, a stage mentalist, so he is pretty good at assessing fakery.

And he's had experiences that there's one.

He talks to ghosts or spirits or past?

He's not a medium, no, but he's worked with mediums and he has concluded on some of his research that there are times it was a conscious, you know, discarnate as opposed to like a place recording.

So I would think it's all possible.

I mean, most kind of rare, like you've seen a rare leopard, snow leopard in the Mount Everest or something, not an everyday thing, otherwise the world would be chaos, but everything's got to be possible once in a while, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

And again, a little bit going back to time. If you're, you know, when we're looking at the planets in deep space now, we're looking millions of years into the past. So there's some way experiences are stored that we don't fully understand.

Like if somebody is looking at our planet right now, and they're at a certain distance, they're seeing the dinosaurs and the sun.

Like if on another planet right now, if there were dinosaurs, they're gone now because we're seeing the sunlight, the starlight, a million years after that star made the light.

But on a planet near that star a million years ago, if there was a dinosaur, we're seeing light from when that light was with the dinosaur, and the dinosaur planet, yeah, it's kind of mind bending.

And then you're like, I just got to pay my taxes and get to work today on time, so I don't get fired and kind of like houses. Back to your dad, did you ever in all this ever have any medium connection or?

Yes.

Yeah, tell me about that.

Multiple.

Oh, multiple.

So multiple. So I started reading Dr. Julie Bichel and her up to quintuple blinded studies on psychic mediums.

And I've been reading about research. For example, there's Dr. Jeff Tarrant, and I'd mentioned the difference between psychic readings versus medium readings.

Well, he scans mediums' brains while they're doing psychic readings and medium readings, and the brainwave patterns are different.

He's got electrodes on their head or something like that. You mean like technically, scientifically? Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like neuroscientific.

So he can see like the alpha, beta, whatever, meditation, or just brain activity. Interesting.

Yes. Yeah. And there is a difference in their brainwave patterns when they're doing psychic readings versus medium readings.

And the brainwave patterns anyway are very like abnormal in many ways when they're doing readings at all. And there are some consistencies among mediums. Like it's, I'm not a neuroscientist, it's above my pay grade.

I'm going to go do like how to tell if this is fake or not.

Can you put these electrodes on your head? Well, I do. Well, I'm getting a reading from you.

And I have a chart I can compare it to the doctor study you just mentioned. And nope, you're not going there. Nope.

This is good. I'm going to put this down. And that's my engineer brain and me thinking like solutions.

Oh my God.

No, it's so fascinating. Please. I mean, I was.

Okay.

So sorry.

Oh, no problem. Yeah. So I was doing all this research and I was like, there's got to be a catch.

I mean, there's just no way this can't be true. It makes no sense. Consciousness could exist outside of our brain.

Like nothing. There's nothing that makes sense about that. So I was like, I've got to see for myself.

And I felt really weird about getting a medium reading. But I first of all, got on the list for one that has a very long wait list. And she was certified by the Wind Bridge Institute, Dr.

Julie Bichel's Institute. And that comes up a little later in another way. But while waiting, I went to an event, got the name of a medium who was not certified by Wind Bridge.

And I was like, oh, this one's going to be terrible. But I'll go see. She's not studied by scientists.

She blew me away. And I hide my identity when I get medium readings, fake name, have friends pay. I mean, hers was in person, so I paid cash.

But there was no way she was like Googling me and sending my face through the Internet during, there was just no way. And I checked her ears to see if she had an assistant watching me on camera Googling.

You know, but to see if she had a little earpiece. I mean, the stuff she got was also not Googleable. And then I just got multiple medium readings, some terrible, some great.

And then I was like, I've got to like volunteer in some of this research. I have to see what's going on. And I went to an event of that first medium from Windbridge.

Her name is Laura Lynn Jackson. I went to her event and I asked her, you know, I mean, first of all, she was very patient because I sat there asking skeptical questions the whole workshop. And then I asked her about a place to volunteer.

You know, Windbridge is in Arizona and I'm in New York and I spent part of the time in LA as well. And she suggested I volunteer for a place called the Forever Family Foundation.

And that was one of the most life changing things because it was founded by a couple Fran and Bob Ginsburg. Sadly, Fran Ginsburg passed away in 2020 and she became like my second mom, Bob like my second dad.

Where is it in Arizona?

The Windbridge Institute. I'm going to have to double check.

I grew up in Phoenix. It's been a lot of time in Tucson and just curious I had not heard of it before, so I was wondering.

You got to check it. It's fascinating. I believe it's in Tucson, so but I'd have to look up exactly.

So yeah, so I start.

You had a lot of cool experiences while you worked there or volunteered there.

Volunteered with, I didn't volunteer with Windbridge. I volunteered with a place called the Forever Family that was based out of New York. And they do similar, like Dr.

Julie Bichel, they collaborate with her. They use science-based protocols to certify psychic mediums. And sure, they can't cheat, can't that they don't get general information, like, oh, you have a grandmother who passed who loves you.

And through that, I got multiple readings. And I mean, the things they knew, like I can give an example from the first reading. And I mean, some of the readings were terrible.

I have to be honest, but-

Is there anything you can tell me on the podcast that they won't Google and search all your podcasts, find some secret, or you kind of, you know the tricks now that you can give us an example?

Yeah, I mean, at this point, so much is out there in my books. I have my podcast. I mean, I still get readings where they get stuff that I haven't written, and I disguise some things.

But this medium knew, the first one, for example, knew so much. She knew that my cat had just passed. We called her this, she was an exceptionally sweet cat.

She said, my dad's holding my cat who just passed, the sweet one.

One thing that was really funny at the end is, I would always say to my dad, oh, I love you, and he'd be like, okay, and bye, and I'd be like, wait, aren't you going to say you love me?

He would say, you know what I think of you, and the medium asked him at the end, should I say, do you want me to say I love you? Do you have any final messages like that? He's like, yeah, she knows what I think of her, and that was amazing.

Also, if a medium told me my dad was saying, I love you, that would mean nothing to me. That's just totally meaningless to me from a medium.

Yeah, that would just be like what you say to everybody. Well, cool.

Yeah.

Then you felt connection to your dad.

Yeah. I mean, and it was just multiple readings where they got information from him and other people and animals. And I think it was even more than just feeling a connection to my dad.

It's like, it goes so much more powerful than that. This is the most profound evidence of our consciousness that could possibly, like it's just the most profound, like mind-blowing research that could exist.

I mean, this shows there's life after death. That goes so much past my connecting with my dad, you know?

I was about to ask you, at least in the notes when I was looking at your background, is this not true anymore?

Because I wrote it down where in the end, you came to the conclusion, this is a quote, an old quote from you, maybe, we need more scientific investigation and skeptical analysis of the existing ghost photography, haunted mansion, electronic voice,

phenomenon, et cetera, et cetera. It almost sounded like you weren't certain, but you're pretty convinced.

I'm not positive, but we definitely need a lot more serious research. Oh, 100 percent of mediumship, survival of consciousness. I think it's highly probable.

And to go from thinking they're zero to thinking it's highly probable is life changing.

I'm going to imagine I'm you for a moment, but I mean, I'm me, but like my parents died, my mom or dad.

Okay.

And I'm picturing myself having an experience where they tell me they love me or goodbye in a way only they could know, and especially my cat name. And I'd feel really good.

But what you're saying is then afterwards that that would go away kind of like a love relationship that, oh, you know, I got over you or I, or I don't think it passed. Your skepticism came back again. Is that what you're saying?

It's like, well, after the first one, certainly, I was just like, there's no way.

I mean, this is, it's so goes against so much of our day-to-day perceptions to think there's an afterlife. And I had been really is my whole life.

Like the only form of an afterlife I'd heard of was traditional religion, which, you know, I respect people's beliefs. That's fine. But there's, with all due respect, there isn't much logic to it.

And, you know, no disrespect. But, you know, if you're going to go at it from a science fact-based perspective, you know, it's not something, you know, if you're going for just logic and fact, you're going to get much comfort off of.

So, I, yeah, I mean, I just, it's like you see a color that doesn't exist on the spectrum.

So you weren't really convinced, meaning, I think I misinterpreted the experience. You didn't tell me this. I made it up.

I assumed when you heard the medium tell you these things, you really, oh, my dad's speaking to me. You were still skeptical.

Yeah. I think part of me at the moment, I was like, oh, my god, this is amazing. But I didn't walk away and say, okay, I'm 100 percent convinced.

It's like drops in the bucket of evidence.

You really are a hard sell. It's good. I mean, because you get fooled pretty easy, especially with technology these days, all the tricks they do.

Yeah, facial recognition and the animation, AI, you know, great. You know, anything you want. Yeah, make stuff up.

Okay.

Yeah.

So what's in the future for you then in terms of any new strategies? You've done medians, you kind of beat that death. Is there any new like things you found, experts that to build the case to keep investigating?

Are you still investigating?

I'm still investigating. I'm still actually very involved with the Forever Family Foundation and a lot of the mediums have become a lot of my good friends. So I'm pretty involved in that world still.

I just think that needs to be a lot more experimentation, especially as technology gets better. I'm studying a lot more about near-death experiences lately.

I'm hoping as brain scanning technology gets better and better, and even what we have now, I think more scanning of mediums' brains, more.

Have you ever considered, or if you did, tell me what you've done to go. One thought I have is, why don't I teach myself how to be a psychic medium and try to do what they do?

Yeah. I've gone to a few classes. I've had a few really good experiences with that.

I can share a couple.

Yeah. I'm sure. I've been grateful help because it's like the Bible and religion.

The priest is saying, God told me, well, I'd like to talk to God. Why? He's God.

He can talk to all of us. He's got more power. He's more powerful.

Why is he picking just you? So that's what I need to believe. So how can we do that?

I think to varying degrees, I don't think I could ever do it the level of the mediums on a consistent basis.

But I took, so once I was at, the first time I actually went to the Forever Family Foundation events, it was a large convention. They did. I was still really new to this research.

I was in 2016. I was really investigating hardcore. I was pretty scared I was going to find the catch and figure out this was all nonsense.

Not come back, you took the red pill or the blue pill in the matrix, however it goes and not become the man.

Why do you want to do this? Yeah.

All right. I was always like, especially early on, am I going to find the catch that shatters everything and I still have a little bit of worries about that.

But I went to this convention and there were about 12 mediums there, and there were different tracks you could go on.

It was either you were going because you lost somebody, you were attending because you were a medium yourself and wanted to develop your abilities and there were three different levels.

You just thought you might have some abilities all the way to, you were pretty close to being a professional yourself.

The last night, there was a dinner and a lot of the people who had taken the tracks of being a medium were given an opportunity they could go try to give the mediums readings.

Jokingly, one of the co-founders of Forever Family Foundation was like, Liz, why don't you go try to do it? I was like, right. I barely even believe in stuff.

Then Lloyd Arbuckle had mentioned earlier, was there, the one I'd taken some classes with at the Rhine, including on ghost hunting, and I also took a class on psychic abilities with him.

Just learning more, not develop bits of developing them yourself, but also a lot of the scientific aspects behind it. Also learning about cold reading, which is a fake technique.

That's the word that's in my head right now, because I've done cold readings with strangers, just as an experiment, not try to connect with ghosts.

It's fascinating if you just open your mouth and speak what comes into your head about a total stranger. I think he went to school here, we're born here, and this is what you do for work.

You literally get out of your, don't filter it, just let it come out. I went around the table one time. This was at a bar just to meet strangers, the three people, and I was like, whoa, I got to go sit down.

That was weird. Because you're right, like who are you? I'm like, I'm just playing a game.

So that's cold reading.

That's actually no, cold reading is a technique. It's a specific word. I get what you're saying, like you're just reading someone cold, like cold reading is actually cheating.

It's, I mean, or it's entertainment. Like if you were to hire like an entertainment mind reader and they weren't pretending they could really do it, and they sit down and they'll read, that's fine.

It's either deceptive or it's entertainment depending on the person doing it. But it's where you, it's faking it.

It's like where you read a person based on logic, like, oh, you've lost a grandmother, or an example is you see a woman come in, and she's not wearing a wedding ring, and there's tan line over where a wedding ring would be, and you see her wearing it

around her neck. I mean, that's very basic, but someone will be like, oh, I'm sensing you lost a husband. It's cheating basically, it's called reading. I think if you're researching this stuff, it's good to learn about.

It's also fascinating psychologically. I haven't studied it that much.

Tell me about when you got your chance.

So I was like, okay, well, I'll get up and do a cold reading. I was going to practice the technique I learned with Lloyd, the cheating, and it was going to be funny, and it was going to be a joke. And I went up first to this woman whose book I read.

I was feeling really weird too. I was feeling almost like all these waves.

No pressure, right?

The audience. Because it was just supposed to be a joke. I wasn't planning to be good.

So I wouldn't have felt any pressure. I just, it was like funny. So I wasn't even sure I believed anyone had abilities fully at this point.

And I certainly, I mean, I didn't even cross my mind in a million years, I could ever do something like this.

So it was going to be a joke, like you lost your great-grandmother, like I have someone like a great-grandfather with like John here, named John here. Like someone's going to claim that, you know? So it was like a row of 12 mediums.

I was doing that as a joke, but I was feeling like weird, like all these waves kind of erupting.

And I just attributed it to, you know, like I'd been in such deep grief, and this was really like the first time in a long time, I'd been in like a big social group.

I thought it was like kind of brain neurons healing, and you know, so I was starting to do the very general cold reading to the group of the 12 mediums.

Like I'm getting a, someone has like a grandfather, great grandfather, their name because of Jay, John, a few of them are like, ha ha, me. And then I'd read one of their books.

So I went over to that woman and I was like giving a few things from her book. And then I got like really like kind of nervous.

I was like, wait, I don't want to like, what if I say something like, I don't want to like say something from her book that's personal, you know, or like to make light of a loss, you know, that's horrible.

So I was like, you know, because I was saying things from her book that had nothing to do with a loss and I wouldn't have ever like made light of a genuine loss. So I was like kind of suddenly frozen for a moment. And this is when it got so weird.

I just started feeling all these waves and I do not know why I did this. I walked over to one of the mediums, didn't know him at all at this point. And I felt like all the waves move in a weird way through me.

Like I felt them all congeal in my heart and explode and like kind of explode. And I was like, did you look someone from a heart attack? Yes.

And then I felt them all move to my brain and explode and explode in a part of my brain. I was like, did you look someone from a brain tumor? I was like, no, it's like kind of exploding.

That would be an aneurysm. He's like, yes. And so I was getting information like that.

I mean, it wasn't so specific.

It makes me anyhow a little more forgiving about the fake. The mediums is like, oh, yeah, did you have a friend with the letter J that died? Because it sounds like, to be honest, it's not that clear all the time.

Well, I'm not a medium at all.

So the first part was a joke when I was doing that. But yes, having the experiential experience did make me, first of all, being like, I have never experienced anything like this in my life. Am I allowed to swear on your podcast by the way?

I try not to, but I'll filter it.

I haven't heard you swear so far.

Yeah. Well, the title of my book. So I was just like, what the, what the F?

It was so weird because it was like a sensorial experience and it made me be like, okay, something tangible is happening here.

This is why mediums are saying, I feel this and it's even more forgiving when they weren't just getting facts, facts, facts.

And it's a language too. Like how do you translate that feeling that's authentic to the word? Like you said, like, what if I didn't know the word aneurysm?

Like I didn't, I never heard that word before. I'm not a doctor. Like I haven't had anybody die a friend, a local bit of aneurysm.

I don't even know what that means. And what if I'm wrong? What if I think aneurysm is this and it's not, and I say aneurysm?

The language connection seems like a potential for mistranslation, or why they're trying to take a moment and ask for more information before they, oh yeah, they make sense. I'm getting this.

Yeah. So I was more willing to collaborate with media. It was not just like pour everything out and give it away, but like, it was more understanding.

It was so cool. I mean, I'm not, but I can't do this 99% of the time, but it was really, it was such a cool experience. Then I took a class.

I've taken class a lot of times just to explore. I don't get stuff most of the time, but there was one other time I did. And that was, it was really interesting.

Like it feels different. You feel all these wings around you. It's really, it's really fast.

Yeah.

That sounds like something like instead of practicing the guitar every day, I'm like, you know, for 15 minutes, I'm going to do my psychic exercises because I want that feeling. Or maybe I don't. Yeah.

Maybe I like living here and not taking the blue pill so much or the red pill, but you still do that. What else do you do? I'm doing your research.

Yeah.

I'm trying. I mean, I still read a lot. I have my podcast where I talk to researchers.

Your podcast, by the way.

I'm going to give you a plug for listeners who are interested in this topic. That's it's the sound quality and the video quality is really good. And your guests are really good.

They're experienced people.

Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah, you have some good guests on your shows for the topic.

Thank you. Yeah, it's fascinating. So I'm constantly learning from them.

I'm going to a conference called the Ions Conference next week, International Association for Near Death Studies. I still get medium readings. I still go to Forever Family.

I'm trying to do out-of-body exercises, and I'm trying to do EVP, which is electronic voice phenomena.

I actually haven't started that, but I'm planning to try where you leave your phone on at a certain time recording and try to get, you set up a time every day and you try to get someone.

Liz, I think one thing that just came to my mind though is, you got to remember to live. I'm sure you do. Take the dog for a walk, get coffee with your friends, go to a movie or a concert, whatever.

You don't want to die and go, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, this is real. Now what?

Yeah.

Right.

That's why I wasn't supposed to remember my past life. I spent my whole life trying to remember it. It was kind of a waste of the life.

So yeah, I think it's also important, like at least for me to talk about it in a very grounded way.

You know, not because a lot of times people talk about this. It isn't very connected to.

There are a lot of people just say this is nonsense period and you die, you're squashed like a bug and you're dead and that's it.

And yeah, that's what I thought, too.

Yeah. And my experience is smarter that people think they are. The more closed minded they are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's understandable why a lot of people are close minded about this, but I think most of them haven't really bothered to delve into it. And I mean, I understand that there's a lot of things in the world to delve into.

You don't have to be an expert in everything. And then, you know, they're hearing less logical reasons to think this. And, you know, sometimes people using their, you know, belief.

Yes.

So speaking of people in general, I'm thinking out loud now there's religion. I had, I had a thought about, you people aren't so interested in this topic, but there's a lot of people that are scared of dying. Right?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm not.

But, but in your, but is this true? A lot of people, I mean, I read about it. A lot of people are afraid of death.

I've heard of it before.

I'm still scared of losing loved ones, but I'm not scared of myself dying the same way anymore, aside from like physical instincts. But yeah, I think that's one of the reasons people avoid it.

I think, you know, also there's a lot of things worth being interested in, in this world. Like you can only use your time around so much, you know, but it would be nice if this research was more like accessible.

And you know, I mean, I think it's something people want to avoid. I used to at least want to avoid the topic because there were two things I'd heard of, atheism or religion with like God and heaven.

And of those two, to me, atheism, I mean, I'm still actually an atheist, but materialism, I guess, which means consciousness created by a brain. When you die, that's it.

That made a lot more sense to me than like, you know, actually, I googled the word atheism because you mentioned it. You mentioned it on your website, I think. And yeah, the rocket scientist or the analytical guy.

When I hear a word and I try to go, what does it mean? Well, I don't know what, what, what is atheism? I mean, I know what it means, right?

People say, well, I don't believe in God. But what does that mean? Because that, that you're using another definition, God, and how can you not believe in something?

It's like a double negative. If it doesn't exist, how can you not believe in it? Okay, you get where I'm going with this.

So, the definition is one who disbelieves mean or lacks belief in existence of God. So, I can see the lack belief. I'm just still trying to wrap my head around the definition because how can you not believe?

It's like the Easter bunny. If you say, do you believe in Easter bunny? I would say probably no.

But that's very specific. That's like saying, do you believe in Jesus? And I could say yes or no.

To just say, yeah, I don't believe in the existence of God is kind of vague to me. I have the definition.

I've never seen any evidence of an existence of a God. I've seen evidence of existence that our consciousness survives. But if someone asks me, do I think there's a God, especially one as defined in the Biblical terms?

No.

Yeah, thank you. That's what I was looking for. Define God because to my dog, I am God most of the time.

He doesn't listen to me like I'm God. Just like a lot of people don't listen to God and they still smoke and cheat on their wives and everything else or even worse, hurt people. God is a relative.

Aliens could be God to people who are tangent. Sorry.

No worries.

I guess what I mean is I don't believe you're truly an Atheist when you say you're one.

I guess again, that'd be how you define Atheist. But yeah, I don't think there's a God.

You don't believe in a religious figure. You don't believe in a religious figure as being God.

I don't think there's one higher consciousness that creates everything. I think we're all just individuals and it just seems to be our consciousness is downloaded by a brain rather than created by one most likely.

But I don't see anything related to anything that could be called a God in any of this. So like one individual creator, planner, you know.

You put it a good way. When people ask me, what do you believe happens after you die? Do you believe in God?

My current, current for me is, I believe whatever happens is what you believe will happen. Just like the saying on, the common saying a lot of self-help people use every day in life here on earth. You know, you create your own reality.

Like, you know, what if you do that after death too? Why would it change if you create your own reality in life and you're telling me that's true? You make your own reality.

Why wouldn't I make it in life too? Which means I better not die until getting the reality straightened out because it's going to carry over.

Yeah. Some of our own reality here, but not all of it. You know, if you're sick or you break your leg or you're born into certain circumstances than others, I mean, that's reality.

You can't change that, but you can change aspects. You can change your circumstances in many ways.

I'm a bad person. I'm going to hell. A lot of people think they're not worthy or bad or did something unworthy on and literally that is one of their beliefs they hold.

And when they die, yeah, they're going to carry that belief over with them, that belief, to which they might actually create a hell for themselves when they don't, because that's what they believe.

Following your logic of rating the way you were phrasing it a moment ago.

I don't necessarily exactly think that. I mean, I do think probably if it's similar to here, you can make it life more hellish there.

Like people can make things miserable here for themselves, and most of us have some things that are bad and some are good. But it seems like just from the research on near-death experiences, it seems like what happens is what happens.

I'm probably as you go, and it doesn't seem that tied into belief. To an extent, some people will see certain religious figures based on their belief set, and that seems to be just how you process it.

Tell me in all your experiences, I just realized how many people you must run into that have cool stories to tell. Tell me about that.

How many people near-death experience, what's one memorable near-death or that you know that actually saw their God? That you know of?

I mean, some will use the word God. Okay, here's an example of one that Dr. Melvin Morse, one of the researchers share to my podcast, I thought was really interesting.

This is why I think when people use words like God, it's interpretation based on what you believe. For example, people who super believe in angels might interpret clouds as angels. So a lot of it's very, what's your interpretation?

So Dr. Melvin Morse actually specializes a lot with children who've had near-death experiences. There was a little boy and he passed away and was resuscitated, and he came back and he said, Oh my God, I met a wizard on the other side.

And he described this like playful experience. Yeah. And then a year later, you know, he describes a man with a beard.

Dr. Melvin Morse talked to him again. And he said, Oh, I met Jesus on the other side.

So clearly, he was in a family that believed in Christianity and believed Jesus was a religious figure and told him, Oh no, no, honey, you met Jesus. So a lot of it is your cultural interpretation. So I thought that story was pretty interesting.

You know, if I could probably guess who that was, it was like a great, great grandfather or something, you know, someone in the family.

And if I could guess, I, you know, we don't know or like someone who's kind of a person, you know, so, yeah, we, I don't know.

I was, I was keeping a real mind and thinking he really met Jesus. How do I know?

Yeah.

I mean, that's not to say I believe in Jesus, but that doesn't mean like, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

I mean, it seems like because people have such like interpretations of religion, and they're probably going to see what they say.

Influence him to where they talked him into, they talked him into believing he saw what they think he saw.

I know, of course. I think he was like five years old.

He's damaged now forever. So Liz, is there anything else you wanted to add?

Yeah. Well, one thing that I, yeah, it's been so fun.

I think one thing I want to add is, you know, especially like people who maybe have a hard time thinking, this makes any sense, is this is one thing that really has helped me too, is neuroscientists who are convinced consciousness is created by the

brain, still can't explain it. It's just as much of a mystery.

Oh, that's a great point.

It's a two-way street. Yeah.

When you say this is impossible, non-localized, it's no, that's silly. And yet, yeah, tell the rest of the story, like you can't actually prove where memories are stored then, right?

Right. Well, it's just our brain is unconscious mass and matter that comes together and fires in a certain way. I mean, there's no inherent consciousness in the matter of our brain.

So how is it that when it comes together, it creates the complex level of consciousness? I mean, it's not just consciousness that survive and reproduce like we believe amoebas have, it's like love and philosophy.

And so that's just as weird and inexplicable, makes just as little sense as to think it's not.

Back to what you would, I think, or I interpreted what you were saying is there's no scientific evidence on how we store memories. Think about this. If we were to store a memory, would it be like you stored on the computer in bits and bytes?

How would it be stored? If it was in bits and bytes, some people who don't understand how computers work, you have to take a real image or a photo and you convert it to ones and zeros.

That your computer stores literally a electrical signal, a charge on or off bits and bytes, ones and zeros. You've all seen the matrix, ones and zeros. That's true.

Everything's coded, which means you actually have to code it, which means in your body would have to be a coder, just like on your computer that converts analog to digital.

To store in a cell which would be a salt crystal, again, ones and zeros, little salt crystals in your body someplace. It would have a, just like your hard drive on your computer, maximum amount of storage.

Maybe that's possible, but then you'd have to decode it. Now I want to look at that memory. To suck on your computer, your hard drive, it'd have to run through the decoder.

If you're having, if you're listening to a song on your computer, it has to take those bits and bytes, convert them back into sound waves. So your body would have to have a mechanism to do that.

It's a fact they do not have any explanation on how that level of technology actually works in the brain. Right, Liz?

Yeah. I mean, I think they know a little bit about memories. That's a little above my pay grade.

I'm not a neuroscientist, but they don't.

Yeah, but it's like back to, it's like saying, well, I know my computer. If I hit play, I watch a movie. That's what they know.

That's all I know.

Right.

They don't know anything. They don't know the computer, how it stores stuff. So it works both ways.

You have to remember that sometimes. When we say, life after death or god, or this is not possible, and you're like, we don't even know.

I mean, to me, even being an engineer, if you ever see the math on how basic radio works, let alone color TV or Wi-Fi, the math and the physics on how something just goes through space, at the speed of light, by the way, Liz, these radio waves.

And you just get the picture on the other side on your computer. It's mind-blowing. We take it for granted.

It's like that. Well, that kind of science, you can explain to your TV, but they do not have an explanation for how the body stores memories the same way they know how to run a TV. And we'll have to learn it on both ways, still.

Definitely.

Definitely.

Yeah. So I think I, I interrupt you a little bit. Do you, um, anything else you want to add?

That's pretty much it, I guess, you know, the where to find me, I don't know.

Her book is, her book is cool looking cover.

Guys, they're just helping like he just died. Think about it, you just died. What just happened?

Her book is WTF, What the F just happened? A Sciencey Skeptic Explores Grief, Healing, and Evidence of an Afterlife. She has her own podcast.

What's the name of your podcast?

Also, my second book just came out too, which is WTF Just Happened. A Sciencey Skeptic Investigates Even More Evidence of an Afterlife and Fights for Justice with Her Dead Dog. That one just came out last week.

And then my podcast is WTF Just Happened, all about the afterlife. No woo.

Nice. And it will be in my show notes too.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, Liz. Thanks for being on my show.

Oh, it was fascinating. Sorry.

Good to know you're still investigating. Like I asked you if you're moving on to other stuff, it still sounds like you're still having fun with it too.

I am. Thank you so much for having me and for a great conversation.

Thanks, Liz. Have a good day.

You too.