Think Differently. Solve the Impossible.

 

 

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My guest today is Rachel King.

Rachel is an attorney who specializes in high-conflict divorce and child custody cases.

When she was 21, she had a child, and then after that, as a single mother, put herself through college and law school.

She's a real go-getter, I'm sure a good one to have on your side if you need an attorney.

She calls herself the king of litigation.

She has 10 years of experience owning her own law firm and being the lead litigation attorney in family law.

She has a book out called Getting Divorced...

Now What?

And in it, she discusses divorce, separation, child custody, and useful legal strategies.

She also coaches clients on how to co-parent and communicate when preparing for court.

Welcome to my show, Rachel.

Thank you so much for having me.

You covered all of the bases.

I don't have anything to say now.

Well, putting yourself through law school, big one, single parent seems almost impossible.

But tell me, what made you want to become a lawyer?

I come from a family.

I don't want to say a whole family of lawyers, but I definitely come from a history of lawyers.

My dad is a lawyer, my cousin is a lawyer.

And from a very young age, I was really interested in the legal profession because one of television shows and kind of the power and everything that it seemed to demand of people.

Through my formative teenage years, right?

My formative teenage years, I was really attracted to the appeal of being a lawyer.

I saw how much respect and my dad kind of demanded when he would tell everybody that he was a lawyer.

And as a teenager, that's pretty appealing.

And then you add in, as I got older, I really liked problem solve.

And so being an attorney allows me to solve problems.

Being an attorney allows me to take all of maybe my good and bad personality traits and funnel them into one place where I get paid and get to feel good.

So a problem solver.

But then there are times when you really got to stick up for yourself and say, this is how it needs to be.

Right?

Exactly.

Exactly.

So to start with, you say when possible, and I totally agree with this, try to keep things out of court.

So why is that?

And how do you keep from going to court?

How do you reach an agreement where you don't have to go to court?

Well, first, let me say that anytime you have a divorce in order to...

And even potentially like a joint paternity action or co-parenting situation, if you want court orders, or you want to dissolve your marriage, you have to go to court.

So when I say don't go to court, I don't mean getting the court system involved, because sometimes that's necessary.

What I mean is getting the court system involved to a point where the court is making your decisions, or you find yourself going in to court because it's easier, or it feels like it's the only way to move to another process in the co-parenting relationship.

So when I say try and stay out of court, I'm talking about it from a high conflict situation.

How can we dial back the conflict?

And I think sometimes it's unavoidable.

I tell people are if you understand the law and you understand, especially in family law, what is going to happen or what is likely to happen, it can make it easier to navigate the decisions outside of court.

So for example, if I have a parent that walks in and says, I've been the primary parent for our kid's entire life up to this point, and I want to continue to be the primary parent, so I want sole custody.

That isn't in most cases, especially in California, how the law with the law thing.

Oftentimes, the law is written so that both parents have a joint opportunity to continue to co-parent.

So if that client, if I can help that client understand that that's a losing battle, let's stay out of the court, let's understand where we are, and let's reach an agreement that's going to work for the new situation, but given the understanding of the law.

And I think that's absolutely the first place to start, is understanding the laws in your area, how it's going to apply to you.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but most people don't realize that the child, like if I didn't know any better, and I still don't know much, that's why I'm having this show, I would think if I was a judge, okay, kid, do you want to be with your mom or your dad, or both?

And even if they ask you that or you present that, correct me if I'm wrong, the court, and even if you have an agreement, the parents do, the court will still not so much listen to the kid, and they'll decide what's best.

If you, that's what they do, right?

So sort of, a lot of parents want that to be the case, right?

A lot of parents say, my kid should have a say.

In fact, I get a lot of pushback when I say that kids shouldn't have a lot of say.

So here's the balance.

Children, there are some statutory rules in place in different states.

For example, California says that the statutory age is 14 years old, and at 14, that child should be allowed to have a say in what they are, where they spend a lot of their time.

There are laws, though.

I mean, there are judges that will just say, you know what, I don't think a kid should ever be able to decide.

For example, if we have a 14-year-old who's saying, I want to go stay with mom because mom lets me sleep over at my boyfriend's house, that might be a situation where the judge says, no, we're not going to let the 14-year-old have a say.

She has Netflix or a gaming system with high definition.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I've had, I've talked to some counselors, some therapists.

I'm not a therapist.

And they're kind of understanding when they go to court and when they testify professionally is, if a child is making good general decisions in their life, then maybe we should allow them to have a say into their custody schedule regardless of their age.

So for example, if we have a 12-year-old who's pretty mature, does extracurricular activities, can get themselves ready for school, you know, brushes their teeth, is going to, is doing well in class, is getting their homework done, is just making general good decisions for their age-appropriateness, then maybe they should have a say.

On the flip side, if we have that 16-year-old who's wanting to stay at dad's house because dad is buying pot and is letting boyfriends sleep over, maybe that teenager shouldn't have say because they're not making the best decisions for them.

I do think that there's a difference between children having a voice and having their voice heard and putting the pressure on them to make a decision as to which parent they want to spend time with.

That would be tough.

Even as an adult, you don't want to make people unhappy sometimes by choosing one side over the other.

As a child, it's definitely a conflict of interest because their emotional well-being and the roof they're going to sleep under, food they're going to eat, the school they're going to go to, is all at stake, so.

Right.

So how do you...

What's the next step?

So your client comes to you to getting a divorce and have a child.

Yeah.

Where do you start with this, talking to them about what to do?

I would like to find out what their goals are.

And this is in every area of law.

I'm a big believer in working backwards.

Let's find out what the goals are and then we can create a strategy.

First, what do you want?

There are people again that will say, no, I want sole custody.

There are other ones that say, you know what?

Other parents is really great.

I'm not trying to keep my kids away, so I want an equal time share.

So you have an agreement.

And if you have an agreement...

What do you want when you're going through this?

What does joint custody look like to you?

And then I talk to them about the laws and I talk to them about their case.

But I think when we're talking about co-parenting, the biggest tip that I can give people is to understand that it is your children's time.

It's not your time.

And that's a really hard concept for moms and dads.

And it's kind of sad and it's kind of depressing.

And it may not be the total reality, but if you come in with that frame of mind when you're co-parenting, if you can really hone that and realize that it's your children's time, then it can make it easier to reach an agreement or to allow things to happen.

If it's your children's time...

What do you mean by the children's time in their life?

By that?

Well, it's their time.

So children have, they have 24 hours in a day, just like everybody else, right?

But you'll hear parents talk about, well, it's my time versus dad's time, or it's dad's time versus my time.

Let's get rid of whose time it is.

It's the kid's time, right?

Now, kid wants time with mom, wants time with dad, may want to go on that fun family vacation, might want to spend the night at a friend's house, might want to go to the party.

The child might want to do all of these things.

And so instead of going at it with, no, this is my time, I get equal time share.

Monday at 6 PM is for me.

And you look at it and say, okay, it's my child's time, what's best for my child?

Maybe this Monday, it is important for my child or our child to go to soccer practice.

They really love soccer practice.

So yes, I'm giving up my time, but really for my child, right?

Maybe this weekend, it is really important because I had some really special mother-child bonding activities planned that our child time is really with me.

But when you can take it from mine versus mom versus dad's time and look at it for child's time, I think it allows the parents to come together, to be more willing to agree to a timeshare or to different activities or to adjusting.

Is there someone who, someone, someone else besides you that can help both parents get together and figure this out?

Well, mediators, right?

So you can always be a mediator.

Or I guess we could, but...

Therapists, I'm a big believer, I'm a big believer in getting a therapist and having either, if you can do it jointly, I think that's really good.

There are many, even marriage and family therapists that will help couples learn how to co-parent and the tools to co-parent.

So I think that's a really good idea.

But even if your other parent won't go to, you know, to counseling...

I heard this term, parent coordinator.

Is that a term in the...

I'm not familiar with it, but it sounds good.

It's someone who, this was...

So I'm in Utah and I was just Googling Utah Child Custody Law before this.

And it says a parent coordinates a mental health professional that expertise, child development helps the parents resolve their differences, but it's confidential.

They don't have to take the recommendations, but it's, I guess, someone who's like...

So you don't have to spend your time as a therapist being an attorney.

So I guess that sounds very similar to something we have in California called a 730 evaluation, which is where we have a professional come in and give a recommendation to the court.

You can accept it or you can't accept it, and they do it from their using their expertise and interviewing.

Typically, parents don't implement that if they are getting along because it costs a lot of money.

But if you can go see a therapist individually or jointly and learn tools on how to communicate, then that can really help a co-parenting situation.

Same as talking to an attorney about what battles to pick.

Co-parenting is really about communication and understanding your role in the child's life and how that's going to have an impact long term.

It's like therapy for the adults more than the kid.

Almost like, how old were you guys ready to have kids?

Should you have, you can fight over this.

It's a human being.

It's equally human.

That's the thing.

It's just as much dad as it is mom, and that's where the conflict arises.

So unfortunately, what percentage of the time can people settle it?

You still go to court, but they come to an agreement versus...

You're tagline is high conflict divorce.

What percentage is it like that?

Like, let's put the gloves on versus we can come to an agreement.

I think most people learn how to co-parent and co-parent effectively without the court coming in.

Okay.

So then that leads to my next question, which is, do you need an attorney?

And how do you know when you really should get one, you need one?

I think you always need to consult with an attorney to understand how the court process works and to understand the laws and how they're going to apply to your case.

That could be through a consultation or some kind of advisement.

I think the point where you need an attorney in court is truly when you're having a difficult...

Once you don't feel comfortable.

I've had clients that say I need an attorney just because I...

That would be me.

That would be me.

Yeah.

Court stresses me out so much.

I'm so anxious I can't even function.

So that would be a good idea.

Or if you find that you're losing a lot, but you're losing because you aren't able to tell your story to the court effectively, right?

If you're having a difficult time doing that and getting shot down and not heard, it's probably more of a procedural issue or something going on rather than you losing for the merits, right?

And I don't think you want an attorney.

Will a judge ever feel sympathetic if you don't have an attorney?

Sympathetic more for you, especially if your partner or your other side does have an attorney, to which it's, okay, I'm going to risk not having an attorney, but hopefully I get some sympathy.

Or would a judge go, oh, you should have got a lawyer.

It's your kid.

Why didn't you?

Well, as an attorney, I always want the judge to hold everybody to the same standard.

And so I will say this.

Judges will, they have an obligation to hold somebody who is self-represented to the same standard as an attorney.

So for example, if I have to file documents 15 days prior, because that's what a court rule says, the other unrepresented person that doesn't know the court rule doesn't get away with not filing the court paperwork 15 days ahead.

They're still held to the same legal standard.

Where I do see judges being more flexible is when it comes to hearsay objections, or trying to...

You're not supposed to tell narratives when you're in court and testifying, but often times they'll allow that kind of...

those kind of things to happen, because it's very difficult to not give a narrative when you self-represent, but otherwise they are required to hold to the same standard.

They're not allowed to give somebody that's self-representing an easier time.

So let's say we're going to court and we can't make an agreement, so we're going to have some argument.

How do you prepare one of your clients?

For court, when you sit down with them, what do you say?

What do you train them to be ready?

I have three things that I tell people that are going into court, whether they have attorneys or they don't have attorneys, and that is that you want to treat it as a professional experience.

That can mean you're on time, you dress intentionally, and you are treating it with the respect that it deserves whether you like the court system or not.

When you have one human that is about to make a decision that is going to entirely affect the rest of your life, like a custody visitation schedule of your children, treat it with the respect that that whole situation requires.

Being on time, presenting yourself correctly, and overall being professional.

So that's the first one.

The second is be prepared in that you've thought about what the hearing is for, and you have put together an idea of what you want to say that specifically targets what the court is trying to hear.

So for example, a lot of people get confused and they'll go in and it'll be a child support hearing and they'll start talking about how they need to change custody because something happened.

The court isn't going to hear anything on child custody because that's not what the day is about.

The day is about child support.

And the reason that's important is because you only get five minutes.

So if you spend four and a half minutes on the wrong thing, you're wasting time.

You're wasting time.

And making the judge impatient.

And another thing I noticed when in one of my jobs that I do, I'm an expert witness, and normally it's, and I still don't understand procedure.

So thank God for attorneys.

I'll go, ask your attorney, ask your attorney, ask your attorney, ask your attorney.

That's the hardest, that's job security for us, is procedures.

Right, so, for example, one time I noticed when it was in magistrate court, and the judge, so there was jurisdiction, I saw one time the judge, a question asked where the judge said, it's not this court's jurisdiction.

Like the judge might agree with the client, but this is not the place to deal with that.

And one was, where the judge couldn't wrap his head around, finding who is the right or wrong with something, they're looking for the ease of way out.

Like, what law can I go, you know, connect the dots?

Yes, that I agree with.

No, that I don't.

And when someone was getting to something really abstract and emotional, and like, judge, this isn't fair, blah, blah, but not really to the point.

Not to the point, what's the law?

Or what do you want?

And legally, how can I make it happen or not?

The judge had picked the easy way out, because people were just on a, you know, thought they could just come in and cry or point fingers or something.

And it doesn't work that way, right?

You got to have a strategy.

You got to stay on point.

And that is kind of to the last thing that I tell people, and that is you want to prepare your presentation to the court, where first, you acknowledge the importance of what is happening.

So I understand that a relationship with both parents is really, really a good idea.

You want to follow it up.

So it's kind of like start with a compliment, right?

Then the next thing you want to present is your issue.

I understand that it's really important for our child to have a relationship with dad.

My concern is that for the duration of, and the history of our relationship, dad was a heavy drinker and would pass out drunk every single night, and I had to take care of the kids.

And this behavior is continued because dad got a DUI last week.

So I'm concerned about dad's drinking with the kids.

Perfect.

And then we end it with what you want a court to do.

Therefore, I would like the court to order a visitation schedule where our children can be with dad, but there's no alcohol 12 hours before dad's visit.

There's no alcohol during the time that dad has the children.

And if at any point at pickup or a drop-off, mom believes that dad is under the influence, he, she can demand a breathalyzer.

Why does that work?

Because you've acknowledged, you haven't said, oh, dad's such a horrible person and I can't stand him and he always drank while we were on I-12.

You're not, don't complain, nobody complained.

You're acknowledging this important role.

You're bringing up your issue, which is important, but you're providing the solution.

You're giving the court exactly what you want them to do and you're giving them the justification to order it.

And if you do those three things, I think you've addressed everything that the court needs.

You might still lose, but at least you've given the court what they need to even consider your point.

And you've made it easy for them.

Easy.

Easy, yes or no.

Silver platter.

Right.

And so to which, again, they're looking, if you got a judge who's, man, I need more coffee to digest.

It's complex.

Oh, you made it real simple.

I'm going with that guy or that woman because I understand that.

Right.

Or maybe the other parent, maybe you're wrong.

Maybe my silver platter is the wrong side.

But other parent hasn't told them anything to say why I'm wrong, or has gotten so bogged down in feelings, emotions, and name calling that the court is like, I don't even know what's happening here.

Okay, I'm going to go with mom.

Right.

Let's talk procedure.

This is where I really I'm doing the headlights.

And I'm the type that I'll hire an attorney just to sit there with me and it's worth the money.

We walk into court, we sit down, we get sworn in, I take it.

Walk me through the step-by-step what happens.

Well, this is in California, so I'm going to go with what I experience in California.

But in California, on a typical hearing date, you're going to get a time.

Oftentimes, it's some morning calendar.

You may be on the 830 calendar, so you need to be at the court at 830.

You arrive, you go through the metal detectors, you show up in your courtroom.

If you're early, which you should always be early, you'll probably wait outside of the courtroom until the deputy opens the doors.

You'll come in, you'll check in with the clerk to tell them I'm here.

Here, my name is Rachel King and I'm here.

And then you'll sit down wherever the pews or wherever they're telling you to sit.

The clerk will swear everybody in.

It's typically on a mass swearing.

And where I think a lot of people misunderstood is that 830 calendar, it's not just your case, it's a whole bunch of cases.

You still have to be there on time, but you're just going to wait and wait and wait until the court gets to your case.

That could be, you could be the first case that's called, or you could be right before lunch.

It doesn't matter.

But knowing that can, I think, help you understand why you only get five minutes, right?

You get five minutes because the court has to move on.

They'll call your case, you walk up to the tables, you sit, oftentimes there's some label, whether where you sit, so you sit down there.

The court, I always say, let the court take the lead, right?

Let the court lead their own hearing.

It's judges, they oftentimes are in a position of authority, and that comes with a whole lot of personality complexes.

And they have a record to maintain so that they can be held up on appeal, or so any appeal can be handled correctly.

So they take control of their own courtroom.

Let the judge take control.

Let them say who they want to speak first.

They'll often say, as an attorney, they say, Ms.

King, will you make your appearance?

And I say, yes, this is attorney Rachel King on behalf of mother who is present and has been sworn, right?

So we let the court take us through our appearance.

And then it's typically the moving party, the person that asks the court to decide an issue that gets to go first.

If I ask the court to make a child support order, then I'm the moving party.

And the court typically starts with that person and says, look, you asked us all to come here today for this issue.

You tell me what's going on.

And so that's where you like...

I recommend that three-step process.

Here's the importance, here's the issue, here's the solution, right?

You put that up.

And then goes to the other side, and oftentimes you're given an opportunity.

What I think people make...

And then the judge will make a decision, right?

That's it.

That's the whole process.

Sometimes it's for a court hearing, yes.

There's things that happen before that, like you have to file documents.

But when we're talking about appearing in court, that's typically the process.

And where people make mistakes is they do all the sighing and they're not prepared and they go down the wrong rabbit hole, and that's no good.

Or let me throw one in.

They lie, right?

Does that happen?

Oh, I think it's comical that people assume that nobody lies in court.

Just because you're under oath, gosh, people lie every day.

And my own advice is that's what's the classic saying, how you're going to dig yourself out of a lie with another lie.

It's not the...

You know what I say though?

I say you, especially in family law, you know the other person is going to lie, and chances are you know what they're going to lie about because you know them really well.

Okay.

So if you could walk in anticipating the lie and anticipating how you're going to either prove the lie or address the lie, I think you're a whole lot better off than just...

Oh yeah...

.

the clouds and you're like, I didn't know they were lying.

Defense, the good defense.

Let them make the wrong play.

And then what do you think about this?

It's another just general life advice for this, you know, legal situations.

Don't say more than what's necessary.

But for example, Your Honor, I think this is best for my kid, because this morning when I was taking to soccer practice, before I stopped off at Walgreens to maybe, you know, buy some beer for later or whatever, you start talking.

I mean, I'm not, I don't do this, but I'm just, and I'm just making this up, of course, but just say what you need to say, right?

Nothing more.

Yes.

And that's, that's what I tell not only clients, but witnesses when I'm putting them on the stand.

Ask the question, answer the question that's been asked.

If it's not enough, then allow the judge or another attorney to ask the next follow-up question.

One, it delays time if you over-answer.

Two, it can take off a judge.

If they ask you a yes or no question, like, did you get a DUI last week?

Yes or no?

No, I didn't or yes and then not, but it was the police was corrupt and shut up.

Nobody wants to know.

And then the worst reason though, which I think you're getting to is, you might say something super incriminating that wasn't nobody even knew about.

Right.

And you decided to over-talk and now it's like, wait, you drink beer at 9 AM or you send your kids to the store?

Yeah, who knows what you forgot to...

But you volunteered it.

Or even something that's not that disparaging, but for whatever reason, the judge, it's a, they're still human, the judge.

And things you say, you might be, you might either be building rapport with that person or losing rapport.

Like they may have learned to like you or not like you.

And even though they're doing their job, they're going to probably try to rule the correct ruling.

That psychologically probably has to have some effect, right?

So unless you get personal, if you don't need to get personal.

And you know what?

I tell people is how we hear the evidence, like how I hear the evidence would be different than how you heard the evidence, which would be different than every person in the courtroom.

And so it's really difficult to understand how the court, how the judge is interpreting that evidence.

It's also, like you said, they're human.

So they might tune out for a minute, maybe their cell phone buzzes.

And for that moment, they weren't listening, right?

But then you say something else and it just triggers.

They hear the word alcohol.

And even if it's not that big of a deal, it's all of a sudden like, wait, what is going on?

So I do think you need to, yeah, only answer the question that's being asked.

Shut up.

Less is more.

So what if parents live in different states?

Well, this is very common, especially in California, where everybody is on California Exodus.

The court is still going to do every, in my experience, is still going to do everything that they can to have a child have as much time with both parents as possible.

This will oftentimes look like a custody schedule where the parent that moved away gets holiday, school breaks and summer, and then the parent that is in...

How do you do the court proceedings?

Is the court the one where the divorce is filed?

So, custody and visitation is established based on jurisdiction.

It's where the child and the parents have lived for the last six months in the state and three months in the county.

If you already have one, you know, if you got a divorce and you have court orders from California, but dad now lives in Arizona, mom lives in New York, you're still coming back to California to handle that custody, change until the jurisdiction has changed.

So it's a formal process to change jurisdiction.

So if you're coming to visit your children from out of state, you're going there, you're going to have to go back there for every court hearing.

The question is that kids go to the new parent.

They're not going to say that all visitation has to happen in California necessarily.

They're going to let the kids fly unaccompanied.

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what if you're in the military?

Same thing.

I mean, that's most commonly where I get cases where the court has jurisdiction in California, but everybody lives in other states.

The court typically wants to keep best interest of child and keep them in the most stable relationship and the most stable environment.

So if the child has lived with mom for most of the child's life, but mom is in the military and is moving around, they're probably going to maintain that even if mom...

Will they do a telephonic appearance?

Like you get sworn in over the telephone or by Zoom?

Are you talking about court appearances and not living in California?

Yes.

So the travel involved with just the appearances and the deep processing.

Yeah.

So we have a really great remote system in California.

You can request it.

I think most states though are allowing telephonic and remote appearances.

There are limitations to that.

For example, if it's trial, many of the courts are saying, no, you have to come in person.

It's really hard to do trial remotely.

So tell me about some of the most common ones that are challenging and how you've come to a resolution of how you've tried to argue them and win, and how or why they didn't win, and the strategies for some of the most challenging, but also the most common things you run into.

I think the most challenging custody battle is where, and I'm not going to talk about a specific case, I'm just going to talk about the circumstances because it's really common, are when both parents are so hostile with each other that they can't get past their feelings about the other parent.

And so they're constantly projecting their feelings, thoughts, and emotions about mom or dad in front of their kids or on their kids.

And that causes super high conflict.

If I don't, obviously, I don't get along with my husband if we're divorcing or we got divorced.

But those are my personal feelings.

Even if my husband did something totally wrong that justified the divorce, those are my personal feelings.

And so, if I'm trying, if any part of me is trying to have my children see that same side, then I'm failing, but I'm also going to result in a very high conflict situation.

So, when parents are not able to step aside and hold their feelings with themselves and allow their children to have their own independent feelings on the other parent, then it causes the most high conflict.

And that's really where I tell people...

Attorney, that's when, to answer the question, when you're an attorney, you need one.

Yeah, but also I think really understanding how to...

Even if you have an attorney, how you prove that is really, really hard, right?

How you prove that the other parent is alienating, it's a form of alienation, can be hard.

And so that's where communicating in a certain way, preparing your evidence so that you can actually present it in court with or without an attorney is helpful.

How do you prepare evidence of alienation?

It's really hard.

So alienation is not just that simple.

It's like a totality of the circumstances thing.

And so we look at whether the children are being used as pawns, whether there's negative discussions about the other parent in front or other people are.

So we look at all of it and we really have to show a pattern of behavior.

And we assume, we know, that when we go in on a claim of alienation like that, the other parent is going to deny everything, right?

And probably try and push it back.

So having some very, you know, good record keeping using something like Talking Parents or Family, My Family Wizard or one of these.

And can you have witnesses?

Witnesses?

Can you depose witnesses?

So deposing is something that happens outside of trial, and you can personally depose.

Bringing witness testimony to the stand, you can if it's in a trial.

Typically, in my experience, courts aren't going to listen to witness testimony in like one of those 830 morning calendars.

It just takes too long.

He said, she said also not...

Well, it takes too long.

They have five minutes.

Oh, okay.

Oh, so most of these child trustee cases, they're in and out.

They're five minutes.

You really do have to be prepared to know what you're going to say and why and how and what you're asking for.

Well, most of them aren't just one hearing deals, right?

Most of them are multi-hearing deals.

And then if you really can't decide, then you do go to trial on it, but you set a trial day or trial days, and that's where you can bring on all of your more extensive evidence.

Okay.

What about divorce in general?

Let's switch gears for a minute.

Same kind of court procedure?

It can't be five.

Is it five minutes?

It's not five minutes still.

So I think the issue that people need to understand is that you have to ask the court to do everything.

The court just doesn't do it on its own.

So divorce is kind of where we have this marriage that we're dissolving, and then within that, we have to deal with all of the issues individually.

So we have to deal with custody, visitation, if there's kids, child support, if there's kids, spousal support, the division of assets, the division of debts.

We have to deal with all of those.

So every time you want the court to make a decision on one of them, you have to ask the court to do that.

If you can reach an agreement maybe on division of assets, but you can't reach an agreement on spousal support, then you reach the agreement on one...

Oh, I see.

And then you go to court for the five minutes.

Yeah.

Well, and then you ultimately set it for trial.

If you need to put on evidence, then you set it for trial.

But you only go to trial on the issues that you cannot resolve.

And there's a lot of times and opportunity throughout the process to resolve the issues.

What percentage do you actually go to a trial?

I would say probably only about 5% of cases go to trial.

It's a pretty low number.

Is that when there's just a lot of money?

I was going to say a lot of these are, there's a lot of money at stake or something really.

Because otherwise...

A lot of money or a lot of emotion.

I would say a lot of people in family law that take it to trial are way too caught up in the emotion and are willing to spend unnecessary amounts of money for emotional reasons.

So let's say you get a custody agreement and it's finalized.

You're going about living your life.

Something happens and you need to enforce it.

The other party is not following the agreement.

How do you enforce it?

What's it?

How do you enforce court order?

A visitation order?

Yeah, you can call the police.

It's not always the best.

You'll hear a lot of people and I don't think that's the way to go unless it's dangerous.

But anytime you try and enforce a custody order using the police, then your kids now just got put in the middle of a police altercation between their two parents, who in most cases they love equally.

Let's say they're supposed to get on a plane and go from California to Colorado for the weekend and you make up an excuse.

Mr.

Flight, but they didn't.

His is like the fifth time in six months.

I haven't seen my kids in six months.

I would probably say you go into...

I mean, then you have to go into court and ask for emergency orders.

And the court will probably do it.

I mean, they're not...

Especially in a situation like that, they're less inclined to take on an emergency like, you know, dad was 30 minutes late.

And so I think that we should change visitation or cancel it.

Like, okay, for 30 minutes late, technically...

I'm more thinking of the situation where, where you say you're a mother and you're in California and the father moved away.

And for a while they were seeing each other.

Or reversed, one parent's in one state has moved away.

And the one that moved away, you had an agreement that you would, you would put your child on an airplane to come visit once in a while, and all of a sudden it stopped.

And so you're not calling the police.

You're just like, how do I, how do I make sure?

I call the police.

If my kid doesn't get off that airplane, probably, I'd probably call the police.

But, but I mean, if you, especially if you have a parent that's not being reasonable and is not willing to say, oh, we, you know, I got it.

Here to be on the next flight.

Otherwise you have to go into court.

I mean, I think that's the only option is you have to go into court on an emergency basis and ask the court to order the child returned.

I've had courts that have opened Amber Alerts because a parent didn't return a child.

And then at that point, the child recovery unit or whatever the law enforcement agency is, we'll go and pick them up and return them.

But I mean, can you imagine as a child how that would be to have that happen?

So I know there's times and places that it has to be done, but I always try and say, which is funny because I'm a family law, I'm a litigator, but how can we make this not so traumatic for the kids?

How can we not?

And maybe that's because I'm a child of divorce.

So let's think about it from the kid side.

Because really, they're only young for a very short time, and you're only in family law for a maximum of 18 years.

So that seems so long until your kids grow up, and then don't you want to have the best relationship that you can for all of their adult life instead of taking up-

I was just thinking, how long does it take to court?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Well, she'll be 18 by the time we go to court, but go to trial, go to trial, I mean.

Going to trial, how long it would take and whatnot.

Yeah, time is short.

So-

And then to spend three years of your kids' life fighting in court with the ex, and some people do it all the time.

Some people are in court every single year, but for custody and visitation, I think that's devastating for both of them and especially for the kids.

And what's the worst thing you've seen?

I mean, I've seen parents file restraining orders against their children.

I've seen, which I think is not, and I'm not talking like, I'm talking for like strategy purposes.

I've seen false allegations of sexual abuse just to gain a strategic advantage.

How do you fight something like that?

It's tragic.

I mean, there's a lot of investigations that end up happening.

And one of the ones in particular was, you know, the child even confirmed that the parent that made the accusations ultimately ended up, say, admitting that they made them up, but it was just devastating.

I mean, horrible, horrible.

So what's the best?

What's the best thing you've seen happen?

Oh gosh, the best things are the things I don't see, right?

They're the ones that don't need me, that divide.

Right.

I was going to say, you don't need me, right?

Kind of like Goldie Hawn and Kirk Russell.

We're not even married.

So we don't need divorce, and our kids are fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I tell people the other parent gets to screw up their kids the same way that you get to not screw up your kids, right?

So we have a lot of parents that refer to them as my kids, and that's a natural way to refer to your children in any other space other than the family law space.

But if you understand that they're 50 percent this other person, literally 50 percent from a DNA standpoint, then maybe you can realize that they get just as much say unless there's something horrible, neglect, abuse or something like that come up.

I know a lot of kids probably say that.

That's a hard pill to swallow, right?

That's a hard pill to swallow.

A lot of kids probably say that all the time, right?

Like I'm 50 percent you and 50 percent you.

And so I'm a person, so I'm not an adult.

Don't I get a say?

Don't I get a say?

I don't think that kids want to say as much as people think.

I think it's really, I mean, think about it.

Not in this kind of serious stuff.

I mean, just, we don't...

Where are we going to live?

Where are we going to live, Ted?

Right.

I just think that in a co-parenting situation, more kids probably don't want to be involved than do.

I think most of them want their parents to agree on a visitation schedule and they just go where they're supposed to go and they stay out of it.

In my experience, kids want to make mom happy and make dad happy and they kind of say whatever they need to in the moment, but they just don't want to be put in the middle of it.

I've put kids on the stand and I don't like doing it.

And I've interviewed, you know, I've had a lot of kid contact through custody.

And I can tell.

And then I was a child custody, try a divorce child.

And man, no, but none of them want to be involved.

They just want all of it to be handled by adults and they want to go see mom and go see dad and just be able to be a kid.

So, if you do need an attorney, what do you recommend?

How do you find a good one?

Besides you, of course.

I think, you know, fine, talking to some and seeing if it's a good fit, you could go and talk to the best attorney in the world and not like them and then it doesn't really matter because every time they tell you something, you're not going to believe them anyway.

So talking to an attorney and finding out if it's an attorney you trust is a really great place to start.

Trust your gut.

It could also be a good idea to talk to other people and see if there's any referrals.

Maybe look on reviews.

Sometimes reviews are really great.

Sometimes they lead you in all sorts of wrong directions.

But when people ask me the most important thing in hiring an attorney, I say it's that you trust your attorney.

Again, if you have a really bad attorney but you trust them, at least you're going to feel more confident going through the proceedings.

And if you have the best attorney in the world and you don't trust them, you're going to be thinking you're getting screwed and nothing is going your way through the proceedings.

So you trusting your attorney and being able to truly believe that they're doing everything they can for your interest is going to be the most important for sure.

And back to representing yourself, what further tips do you have for someone who is going to do most everything themselves?

I think being able to organize your thoughts, put together what exactly you're asking, and really stick to that, understanding the important issues.

I mean, understanding where the court is coming from, where the law is coming from, for example, best interest on kids.

So acknowledging that, moving into what your concern is, and then following it up with what your solution is, is the best thing.

No court I've ever been in front of wants to be the problem solver.

They just want somebody to tell them what to do, and then they want you to give them the ability to make those decisions.

And so if you walk into court and you say just a whole slew of issues, I've seen judges look at people and say, so what do you want me to do about it?

Or what do you want?

What you want.

And you know, it's shocking because people will be, especially when they're self-representing, they'll say, well, I mean, he's an alcoholic and he is married to a sex offender and he does drugs in front of the kids.

And so obviously, your honor, like that's a problem.

And the court will still look at this person and be like, I get all that is bad.

What do you want me to do, right?

And the court is just asking you to say, I want supervised visits to dad or whatever.

They just want you to tell them what they are supposed to be ordering.

That's interesting and it makes, it's common sense that can put myself in the shoes of, I'm just going to get a court and I'd be thinking of some biblical story where, you know, King Solomon or whoever settles the dispute and the judge will settle it if you can't agree.

But first you got to ask for what you want.

You can't get it unless you ask, right?

And what do you want?

So be prepared.

Don't forget that.

Don't forget.

It's so obvious.

And why?

What do I want?

And why should I get it?

Exactly.

It's so obvious in custody why you should get it.

It's so obvious that mom should get supervised visitation when she physically abused the children.

We, there is no dispute that that is so obvious.

But in court, you have to tell the court the obvious.

You have to actually say it.

And backwards, say what you want first and then justify it with why you should get it.

Not start with, here's my problem, blah, blah, blah.

Start with what you want.

Well, again, I'm a big believer in my three-pronged story.

Mom is super important.

We understand that mom is an important role in child's life.

However, the court did issue a domestic violence restraining order because mom was found to abuse the child.

Therefore, when the court is making some kind of orders, I think it's more appropriate that the court order supervised visitation to mom since there's a history of child abuse, right?

So, I do think you...

I still like my starting with one issue solution.

This is what happened.

So, this is why I should get...

I want this to happen.

I want...

I should have this.

My concern is that dad drinks too much.

Okay.

I am concerned about dad drinking too much because I witnessed it through our entire relationship and dad got a DUI last week.

Which is the problem.

That's the problem.

Right, you justified why you actually have a valid issue, a valid concern.

And therefore, I would like the court to make an order, what you want, that dad is not allowed to use alcohol during or after...

I mean, sorry, during or prior to visits, right?

So you want to make sure that you have all of them, the issue, but you want to support the issue.

You don't want to just say, I'm concerned because dad has an issue with alcohol, because what's dad going to say?

That's going to say, I drink socially, I don't drink too much, like this is all an issue.

She's the one that has the alcohol problem.

Say all the things.

So you need to justify your issue.

Issue, justification, solution.

Like, problem, evidence of the problem, like, document the problem, and then solution what I want.

Yes.

Problem, solution, problem, you're explaining in detail, supporting evidence of the problem, like proving and justifying the problem.

And then here's what I want, it's the solution, Judge.

And it's not easy.

This is what we spend all of our loss while learning how to do.

In a simple way, a simple concise way.

I've had to bring it down to a very, very easy way to follow for people that represent themselves, but it's a hard thing to do.

Okay.

So this is something I thought of because AI is really big now.

Do you have people on AI using chat GBT to try to figure this out?

Like chat GBT.

My husband drinks, I'd like a child's full custody.

What should I tell the judge?

I don't know if people do that.

I wouldn't use it.

I know there's rules in the law about using chat GBT right now.

I also know that there was a situation where somebody relied on chat GBT to get them information that they could file in court, and chat GBT actually just made up a scenario, made up a case that doesn't exist and tried to use that as authority.

So I wouldn't trust chat GBT at all to do that.

I don't use it in my legal career.

Chat GBT is great if you're trying to get a list of things to post on social media, but I don't know that I would rely on it from a preparing a case point of view.

I know there's going to be a lot of people that disagree and maybe at some point in the future, but it's so case specific.

But I think if you rely too much on chat GBT, you're going to be getting really far away from the facts that are relevant in your case.

What I mean is not to do the law research, but to frame, because some people even have a difficult time expressing themselves in a clear, concise way.

So it's almost like you're reading a letter to read to the judge.

Like, Judge, I'm going to just read to you what I want to say because I'll stamp no.

No, judges typically will not allow narratives to be read.

Okay.

So I recommend people do bullet points because bullet points, you can make sure you address all of the issues, but you don't have complete sentences.

So when you're talking about your bullet points, you're presenting it in a more natural way.

Are you allowed to have a flash card with bullet points?

Okay.

You can have all the documentation you want when you're talking to the court.

You just can't read.

You just can't be literally...

Okay.

But you'll be surprised at how many people do.

They show up and they're like, I would just like to read this to the court.

And it's like 12 pages and the judge is like, no way.

Of course.

Oh my God.

Like wake me up when you're finished.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, people.

So you need to practice.

Just make it simple, clear.

It doesn't have to be that long, right?

A paragraph.

No, you want the five minutes.

Five minutes for both sides.

Five minutes.

Okay.

And then in that five minutes, say you keep your short and concise because you want to clear it clear and simple.

And I have my problem solution.

The other party, let's say they take up four minutes.

And now you want to say something back.

Can it go longer than five minutes?

Of course.

That's just a general rule.

And judges typically will make sure that everybody has an opportunity to say what they want to say.

I've seen judges cut people off when they start repeating themselves because it's like, okay, I heard this already.

Or when the judge has heard enough to make a decision and it really just turns into like people talking negatively about each other.

It's like, all right, I don't have time for this.

I have to move on.

And I've had judges say, and you guys have so much you want to say, so I'm going to put you on a day in the future where I have more time for you.

But that never makes a judge happy, right?

Judges want to reach a resolution.

They want to just make an order and have you go.

Yeah, I can only imagine being a judge and have to listen to the...

I'd be waiting for the clear, concise, here's the problem, judge, blah, blah, here's the solution I want.

Thank you.

Next.

A really good roadmap, right?

Yeah, make her his day.

Like, thank you.

That is something easy.

I can wrap my head around it.

Unless, of course, it's like you said earlier, that's not the best thing.

And if it's not...

You've still given the judge exactly what they need to be able to make the decision.

Maybe you're wrong.

And you don't have the information to have the judge make the ruling that you want.

But at least you've given them everything on point that they need to consider rather than having them try and stifle through all of the nonsense to find out still that they don't have any information to make your decision.

And if it's the best you can do and it's just not the fair right choice, you've done your best you can do.

Exactly.

Nothing else you're going to say or do.

And you've done it and you've presented it in a very clear and precise matter, which is going to be the best for your case.

And make it easy on you.

You don't have to get all stressed up and think, oh, I got to fight.

I got to put the gloves on.

I got to make sure the judge knows every detail of everything in our history.

No, we don't.

Yeah.

Well, some people, my mom was one of those who really, literally the principal would be like, oh no, Judy Stye.

That's good for us, right?

Yeah, except not at home, but in school it is because she's the one that had that kind of way of just making people not want to argue with her.

But that doesn't work in front of a judge, right?

I think in family law, it's a court of equity and you want to present the information in a way that shows that you're reasonable and that you're not out to take the child away from the other parent.

And I think if you can present it in, here's my issue, here's why, here's my solution, you are focused more on the reasons that justify your position rather than having it come across as you just don't like this other person, and you're the better parent, and nobody cares if you're the better parent.

I'm married to my children's father, and we get along great, and I still think I'm the better parent.

Now, you talk about people that are getting divorced or in a co-parenting situation, you know for sure one of them thinks they're the better parent, but it's really not about being the better parent getting more time.

Just like it's not about having more money, so you should have more time.

None of that matters.

Kids need both parents.

So I learned a lot today.

I hope listeners found a lot of useful information.

Is there anything I missed or you want to add or you can think of?

When you're going through a child custody or a divorce battle, I think it's really important to put yourself in a position where you feel in control because when you feel in control, you will be able to make better decisions.

But being in control doesn't mean you control the other person or you control the kids.

It's really about being in control of your own life.

If you have money involved, go get a job so that you can become self-supporting.

If you feel like you can't live without your children, so how are you going to survive them being with the other parent for a week?

Go and take care of yourself and find some hobbies so that you are in control of your life and your time.

And I think that will take a lot of the stress away from the family law case.

Nice.

There's also articles and resources on Rachel's website, thelawyerking.com.

Her book is Getting Divorced...

Now What?

available on Amazon and probably wherever else you want to buy books.

Details will be in the show notes for this episode.

To everyone listening, remember if you have legal questions, be cautious about taking advice from friends and family or what you read on the internet.

Definitely not chat GBT.

Do not open that app while you're in court.

That's right.

Reach out to an attorney.

Rachel, thanks for being on my show.

Thank you so much for having me.

I hope everybody got a little...

could take away something.

Yeah, I feel my heart goes out to those people who even have to deal with this issue, let alone a high pressure, high stress.

People always tell me, they say, gosh, your husband would be so screwed if you got divorced.

And I always tell them like, my gosh, I wouldn't fight at all.

I see what happens when people fight.

And I would just be like, we are not fighting about this ever.

So I think there's a way to not fight in every single divorce or custody situation, even when you're dealing with a high conflict other party.

It's just really looking at yourself and how you can make the best and how you can communicate through the process.

Oh, that reminds me, in addition to being someone's lawyer, do you also have a service where you coach people on just representing themselves or how to prepare, deal with this situation?

I do, yeah.

So actually, I'm super excited.

I have a company that we're just rolling out called Budget Legal Services.

It's budgetdivorced.com.

And under that, we offer legal document prep services for people going through family law.

But then also, at my law firm, I am offering coaching specifically for self-represented individuals to learn how to appear in court.

Kind of some of the things in more detail that I spoke about today.

How to package your story, what you want in a way that it can be easily unwrapped and tied with a bow and give it to the court so that it can be considered.

Those are the court coaching services that I provide.

That's great.

I always wondered if it was conspiracy, because it seemed like they made it really hard as not being a lawyer, figuring out the process.

And I'm surprised it's even legal.

I thought they wanted to somehow keep that all to themselves, the lawyers and the judges.

Well, maybe some of them do, but I'm willing to share it.

Yeah, I think, I mean, there's a lot at stake here.

And we do live in America, right?

So, it's kind of should be your right to, to, and privilege to be able to argue case for the fairest thing as the best way possible.

I agree.

Yeah.

Okay.

Awesome.

Thanks, Rachel.

Thank you so much for having me.