Think Differently. Solve the Impossible.

Show Notes

Live for Yourself Consulting
https://lfyconsulting.com/
https://www.liveforyourselfconsulting.com/ 

Becoming Fearless: 65 Strategies to Journey from Self-Doubt to Self-Mastery 
https://www.liveforyourselfconsulting.com/becomingfearless

Transcript

My guest today is Dr. Benjamin Ritter.

Dr. Ritter is a consultant and life coach at Live For Yourself Consulting.

He coaches leaders who want to gain confidence and control over their careers.

His motto is, become the leader of your own career, live fearlessly, and create a career and life you love.

He's the author of Becoming Fearless, 65 Strategies, The Journey from Self-Doubt to Self-Mastery.

Clients, when they come to him, tend to be overworked, overwhelmed, lack clarity and control over their career.

They may be unsure about the next step in terms of their work, doubt their executive presence, and despite success professionally, not feel successful and fulfilled.

He works with them to develop their professional brand and executive presence by defining their leadership story and approach.

He helps them to get clear on the work they were meant to do and grow into a meaningful career either in an organization or out on their own.

Dr. Ritter makes the jobs you want happen.

Companies his clients have worked at include Amazon, Google, and Yelp.

Welcome to my show, Ben.

Thank you so much for having me.

Such a warm introduction.

I'm looking forward to diving in.

So first, tell me your story because your bio is really neat.

It says you had an eureka moment when you realized you never truly had a chance to pick what you wanted for yourself and your career.

And that you say is when your consulting business, Live For Yourself Consulting, was born.

What's your story?

Yeah, I remember that moment.

I was literally walking to work.

That's when I still worked in an office in a little cubicle.

And I was looking around in that moment in my life.

I was playing the victim, like not to discount my feelings.

I felt pretty negative towards work.

I had pretty toxic leadership, unsupportive.

I thought that my organization was supposed to give me meaning.

I was really disappointed in my career.

And I learned later on that that was generally because I had a lot of disappointments.

Everything that I wanted to actually achieve didn't work out.

And so it left me feeling powerless even though I wasn't.

And I was walking into work looking around, and it seemed like everyone had this weight on their shoulders.

Everyone who had this little zombie mode like, I'm going to work.

And I felt it.

And I was like, wait a second.

I know life isn't supposed to be like this.

I spent five years exploring personal development and defining who I was as a human being, but just not as a professional.

And I thought to myself, well, why didn't I do this for my professional life?

Why?

I don't want to be that.

I am that.

How do we change it?

And so that led me down a path of conducting a little bit of a career audit to take a little bit more control of my life, to be the best leader in my life, and to not count on the leaders around me.

And that led me to the field of talent development and leadership development.

And why I chose that is a whole story in itself.

I can tell you kind of the backstory of how I got to that point.

Well, it's really helpful.

My next question was going to be, because you framed it perfectly, painted me the perfect picture, because I've worked as an engineer for a long time at a Fortune 50 company.

And it wasn't quite as depressing as you paint the kind of, not zombies, but the leaders.

My question for you in what you do now, do you just try to help people lead their own path?

Or is it leaders, CEOs you're trying to work with?

Because if it is, it seems you need to teach them not only how to find, how to advance their career, but how to be better leaders instead of beating people up.

The analogy I like to use is, I'm climbing a mountain and I'm a mountain climbing guide.

It's a true story.

My client cannot follow me.

At that point, I realized that physically and mentally, we're still going to climb the mountain.

If I'm the CEO, I'm still going to get you there.

I got to go down and take a different path.

I don't know what it is yet.

Instead, as you know, you painted the picture.

Instead, they just beat you up.

So what do you do in your line of work?

Do you do both?

Yeah.

I love what you said about the mountain guide, by the way, because I was just using an analogy similar to racing the other day, which is, you might be really fast, you might know exactly where the path is, but you're as fast as the slowest person on your team.

So get back there and run next to people.

Yeah.

Well, so I had pretty poor leadership, and that left its mark on me.

We are a culmination of our experiences, and if we're wondering what we want to do in our career, just look at the things that disappointed us and the things that excited us, and we'll generally find what we want to do.

And so there was one aspect, which is, I was lost.

I had no idea how to make the most of my career.

I needed to figure out how to pave that path forward, figure out what I wanted to do, and then turn that into a brand and turn that into work and make money from it and meaning.

But the other piece was, well, I don't want people to struggle with the types of leaders that I've dealt with.

Well, how do I improve that?

And if you improve leaders, you improve organizations, you improve organizations, and generally, maybe the person doesn't have to learn those skills.

Maybe the organization becomes a place where they can grow and thrive, etc.

Change the world.

Hopefully, right.

Leaders, yeah, yeah, leaders can change the environment, change the world, which helps, like the whole, like real definition of leadership is an individual that's responsible for curating an environment that can inspire and get the most out of the people that are around them.

They're not responsible for the work product.

I mean, they like technically are, but not really, that's not their role as a leader.

Which isn't done by saying, you will do this faster, otherwise I will pay you less or fire you.

And you will come in on the weekends, even if I don't need you, just because I can tell you to be here.

Not real inspire.

Not at all.

It's where are you struggling?

What do you love to do?

What resources do you need?

What roadblocks are you facing?

It is a very much a collaborative resource to each employee.

And so the leaders around me were not like that.

So I was like, well, how do I teach people to do that?

And then I got went and got a doctorate in organizational leadership.

So I merge the fields of leadership and career development and a career coach for leaders at any point in their career from I don't know what I want to do to I want to I know what I want to do, but know how to get there to I'm doing what I want to do, but I want to be better at it to I'm a leader and want to feel better about being a leader.

How do I create an environment that I can do this for others?

And that's kind of how I live my values.

Oh, give me an example because I was going to ask you, this leads into that.

So maybe you can give me an example of a solution for this, an example at work.

A lot of people I know, they say they're middle-aged, in their 40s or even 50, or I guess it could be any age, like you or me or anyone who's been working 10 years at a company.

And we wanted to switch.

Say I'm a manager, an engineer, I want to go into completely different field.

That's my dream.

But on LinkedIn then, or when I talked to the recruiter, the recruiter's like, well, you don't have experience in this industry.

You got 10 years of experience in that industry.

Well, because I'm an engineer, I'm a good CEO, I'm a good manager.

But to me, am I wrong, or is this how things are really looking right now?

Because this is comments I get from some listeners.

And if that's true, how do you get around that?

Well, generally, when you're trying to apply to a job, the person that's reviewing applications is saying, is this person going to be a risk?

Is this person going to probably be able to do the job?

And right now, you're getting hundreds, about hundreds of applicants for a position.

So recruiters, they don't want a story.

They don't want to be confused.

They want to see, I'm hiring for this person.

This person has that exact experience.

Let's move them into the role.

So going the normal, natural route to apply for positions, when there are a lot of qualified candidates applying is difficult.

It's like the very, very low success rate.

So to get into any position, honestly, not even just one that you don't have experience in, you're going to have to start building relationships and start conversations and highlight your skills and expertise to get a chance to tell the story outside of just a resume.

Now, you can craft a resume, a brand, that can show the transition that you want to make, but it's still that you generally probably will have to work with a professional.

So you have to get the relationship.

Now, in my own story, I pivoted multiple times in my career.

And maybe a little bit of like hope for people that are listening.

You can, and a little asterisk, it takes time.

So it took me, 2015 is when I decided to go back and get my doctorate, 2014, 2015, three years of school, three, three and a half years of school.

And then building a little bit of my own brand, but also building a network and relationships, publishing research in the space, to be seen as someone that's qualified for a job in learning development.

The first job that I got in learning development was not at all what I thought it would be.

It was not at all doing the work that I wanted to do, but I did a year of that, a year and a half of that, and a job that I wanted saw me as credible and qualified and hired me to then the point where people then were recruiting me.

I was getting inbound requests.

So instead of seeing it as I want to pivot tomorrow, it's what's the first step that I can take to build a skill, to build brand credibility, to then be able to pivot to that dream job in three, four, five years.

So what was the mindset tools you used?

A positive attitude while you were spending, you know, you know, it's going to be a while.

How did you keep going back to the job, the picture you painted earlier, where it was zombie-like?

It was it because you had a plan that you felt better?

You could do it.

This is only temporary.

Yeah, you need to.

So what the big shift for me was, instead of thinking that my job was wrong, I found ways to make it right.

So what can I do today to build a relationship or to work on a project that is more related to my future goals?

So I actually went, so called job crafting, if you want to look this up and learn a little bit more about it for all listeners.

I actually went to my boss and I said, guess what?

I'm doing well.

You see me as a high achiever.

I've been promoted.

I'm in this leadership development program.

I actually found out that I want to work a little bit more in talent development.

How do we make that happen?

And we actually planned a way for me to work on projects at the corporate level.

I started getting involved.

And so I started doing work that I enjoyed.

And there was a recent statistic that came out from Adam Grant that for us to feel more meaning and fulfillment from our jobs, we only have to do it 20 percent of the time.

And so you think like, am I, how much am I working?

It doesn't have to be that significant portion of your week.

You just have to feel like you're involved in it.

Now, the problem was I worked for a couple of months doing that.

I got excited.

I started crafting my life to go get my doctorate.

Like all these things.

So I built momentum.

We got acquired and all the projects I was working on got canceled.

So I lost that.

And so I needed then to figure out, well, how do I show up again with being proud of my work, learning skills for my future, feeling challenged.

And you have to proactively manage up to your leader to make this happen for yourself and manage your day.

Because it's very easy just to get comfortable and just avoid work.

He also thought to him to be careful what you wish for.

Like maybe you think, well, I'll be happy if only if I could do that.

And then your boss says, okay, fine, you can do that.

And you go, oh, wait a minute.

I think I like my old job better, right?

I didn't know this.

I don't want all that work.

Yeah, which is okay.

I mean, then you can put it behind you, right?

And go back and probably just tell your boss and be happy to go back to where you were and even do even excel more where it used to be.

But you got to be ready for that, right?

Yeah.

I mean, everything we're talking about, though, is just taking action.

The biggest mistake people make in their career is saying, I'm not doing what I want to do, so I'm going to waste today and time and withdraw and disengage.

They feel powerless.

Number one mistake.

Yeah.

Instead of, what's one thing I can do today to tell the story in a year, two, three, four years of how I got here?

And generally, we're pretty simple.

If we feel like we're working towards a goal, you know, dopamine gets released, we get a little feel good, happy chemicals.

As long as we feel like we're making progress, no matter how small that progress is, and as long as we're not comparing ourselves to others that have achieved what we want in a negative way, because that can be very depressing, very, very heavy, we tend to feel motivated.

And then a little plus on this, and a little additional way to feel happier, is surround yourself with people that potentially could mentor you to that next step.

So for example, I want to work in leadership development.

I should have in my community, someone that works in leadership development.

I should spend time with them.

I should go to organizational events.

Not only am I going to feel more motivated, I'm going to learn more, but I'm going to also already kind of start building that brand and those relationships that are going to help me get that job.

LinkedIn connect with people like that?

Or other ways to...

Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn is the best tool right now to connect to literally anybody that you're interested in.

Now you want to do it right.

You don't want to just send them a page long resume of who you are.

No, I've been really impressed with your journey so far.

What I can see on LinkedIn, it'd be great to have a quick chat to learn a little bit more.

That's it.

You're trying to build a personal relationship through a professional social network.

To do that, you have to treat it like a personal relationship, which is if you walk up to someone and give them your resume, they're not going to read it.

What are you doing?

If you walk up and say, hi, how's your day, they're going to get a response and that response can lead to further conversation.

So when people come to you, do some of them not have any idea?

Are they just burned out and don't know what they want to do?

Or do you help them figure out?

I don't like to use the word purpose in terms of work that way.

People do, do they go, Ben, I'm unhappy.

I don't know what to do.

Help me.

Yeah, that does happen and there's different stages.

So there's the I need career clarity in person.

There's the person that I know what I want to do, but I don't know how to get a job.

There's person that I'm in the position, but I'm feeling disengaged and I feel like I love what I do, but I don't anymore.

So clarity actually plays a role almost in like every stage of our career.

You might be burnt out or have a toxic leader around you and feel like you don't love your work anymore, but it could just be the environment.

You may have no idea what you want to do and have been secretly holding back on your dreams because you don't feel that they're possible.

Or you may just literally have no idea, but I'll challenge that and say generally every person that I worked with that had no idea knows exactly what they want to do, but they just haven't spent the time really evaluating options, and they're afraid of picking one.

Because if they pick one, what if they fail?

And that is a huge fear that tends to hold people back when it comes to figuring out what they want to do in their life and their career.

By the way, it's going to be a lot of work.

So if you pick one and you don't like it, it's a lot of work like you said, action.

You have to take some action.

I'd be afraid not so much a failure, but this means that instead of going rock climbing this weekend, I have to go to a network meeting that's only on the weekend, only on Saturday or something like that.

I have to change my life.

Or go to a meet up that's for rock climbers and instead of just rock climbing, actually talk to the people around you.

Hey, what do you do when you're not climbing rocks?

And maybe someone will be like, well, I work at Patagonia.

You're like, oh, I love Patagonia.

Can you give me a tour?

Sure.

And you build a relationship with that person.

So you can do things that you love.

You might have to make some sacrifices, yes.

But when you're doing things that you love, if you know what you truly want to do in your career, start integrating that into how you talk to people and the relationships that you build.

So your book is Becoming Fearless, 65 Strategies to Journey from Self-Doubt to Self-Mastery.

The description says, a book about creating a life where you have no limits.

What if you could go to bed every night without worrying about tomorrow?

Live without fear.

Every path would be open to you.

What's one or two of the 65 strategies or tips?

Let's pull the book out.

Let's take a look at it.

Okay.

To face your fear, challenge your thoughts, your feelings and beliefs, and not be afraid of the unknown.

Or any tip in your book.

Open the book.

I got to get you a book, by the way.

So-

I'd love to have one.

So actually, without even opening the book, one of my favorite tips, and this tends to relate to us getting in our own way when we're feeling stressed, when we have deadlines, when we just don't want to deal with anybody else.

But in those moments, those are like the most precious opportunities to build a stronger relationship.

So it's like maybe your loved one comes in, or maybe a coworker comes in to your office, or they need something.

Someone's asking you for their attention for a moment, but you just feel like you don't have the time.

Well, there always is a moment to value the person in front of you.

And so the tip, it generally kind of has the statement of never rush a hug.

And so when you have a moment to actually connect with someone and to give them your intention and to value their presence, and they're asking you for that moment, then to treasure it.

To not be so afraid of the 30 seconds that you're going to miss and that it's going to take, and to actually truly value the moments that are in front of you that are valuable.

Nice.

Every once in a while when that happens, most of the time I take a moment.

Sometimes I'm so busy, and I'm trying to judge it.

Like how, how real important is my help or my presence or whatever to them?

Are they, how much they really need it versus what I really need?

In the times that I'm tended to go, oh, you know, I just, you know, just not take the moment with them.

It's like 10 seconds later when they've left, I go, oh, Daniel, I turn around and run after them.

Like run screaming after them.

Stop.

I don't know how else to do it.

You know, come back.

And because, you know, otherwise I have regrets myself.

I'm like, that could have been me.

That could be me.

And what courage it took for that person to ask me and why they chose me, it's kind of an honor, right?

It could be me.

I'm blessed that they asked me.

So that's a good one, Dan.

Beautiful.

Talking about fear, becoming fearless in your life is one of your big, your big mottos.

How can we distinguish between, and this is kind of a back to the mountains, mountain climber sees mountain climbing a lot as an analogy.

How do you know healthy fear?

Like there's a crevasse we have to cross, and we don't have a rope.

Let's turn around versus fear that's holding us back.

But we can do this.

I have the rope, I have a partner, we have protection, crevasse is scary, let's cross it.

But how do you know which is which, and when to move forward, and how to make the decision, the intuition, the judgment?

And if we want to use the definition that fear is good or bad, then when you're climbing or doing something that's exciting or fearful, that might even be the reason why you're there.

And the book, hopefully, promotes the ideology that fear is not good or bad, that fear is the information.

Because you can also make the argument that fear is the same physiological response as excitement.

And so when you feel fear, what you really are is excited, and use that energy to go do something in order to reinterpret it.

But if instead, let's just say fear is just your data that your brain is interpreting.

And what I'm trying to do with the book itself, and I think with my work, is to say that we judge way too quickly.

We judge something as good or bad immediately.

And without taking a pause to say, what is this information really telling me, we're missing out on being able to have a little bit more control over our life, over our actions, and to be able to work towards the things that we care about, and to show up as who we want to be in the world itself.

So no matter what is happening, because again, some fear, like, I mean, let's say you are feeling afraid.

That is valuable information.

Like, oh, that tiger in front of me.

It's not in a cage.

It's somehow got on the street that I'm walking on.

It looks hungry.

I probably should run.

Like that's information.

But instead of some people, though, are so afraid that they'll freeze.

Yeah, like a sixth sense where I smell something more.

I felt something touch me on the back.

Pause for a moment.

That's my fear.

Oh, it's not a tiger.

It's my best friend, my climbing partner.

So basically, it's pausing for a moment to gather more information about why your body wanted you to pause and think about it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, we're interrupting the cycle because generally what happens is we feel something.

We see something.

We feel our heart quickens, our breath increases.

Maybe we get a little sweaty.

We feel something in our gut.

Maybe our legs start shaking because of the energy that's being created.

And we go, these feelings mean fear.

So then you labeled it.

And so you start thinking, well, if this is something to be afraid of, then this is terrible.

We kind of get caught in this cycle.

So then with that thinking, we then create a belief or we pull from previous beliefs that we've had like, oh, when I feel this, this has happened before.

I've spoke publicly, people laughed at me, I got in trouble.

And then we start down the spiral.

Oh no, this is terrible.

What am I going to do?

This is, and we've reinforced the belief pattern.

So how do you break it?

Oh, go ahead.

Yeah.

So to break it, we have to interrupt the labeling.

We have to actually say, this is difficult, everything I believe about fear is wrong.

I'm going to proactively decide to reprogram my beliefs based on what I'm trying to achieve and who I'm trying to be in my life.

And do I get a little script out so when I'm afraid, I'm going to go talk to my boss and I'm scared to ask for moving into the different positions we spoke about earlier?

I get the little piece of paper out and read this model to myself because that's a lot to remember and actually be able to do it when you're afraid.

Yeah, hence, hopefully, you have someone that you're working with.

Let's say you're working by yourself.

We're not talking about big changes.

We're talking about little changes.

So if it's talking to your boss, you're afraid.

Well, what are you afraid of?

Let's actually examine the belief.

Oh, if I talk to my boss, I'll lose my job.

If I lose my job, I'll lose my home.

If I lose my home, I'll become homeless.

Let's use your example previously where I'm not worried about losing my job.

He's not going to fire me.

I just want to ask for a different type of work for that 20 percent.

What was the one we were using earlier?

Yeah.

And what are you afraid of in the situation?

Oh, for me, what comes to mind is, then I would think that I'm making this up, and this is where the fear comes from.

It's made up, right?

But it could be true, too.

I don't know.

This is why I'm afraid.

What if he or she thinks, oh, you don't like your job.

And once that's implanted in them, I don't like my job.

Now they're going to look at me differently because they think I don't like my job.

That's my fear.

And maybe they'll pick somebody else to do a special task with that job now and leave me in the corner because they're like, Daniel doesn't like his job.

Let's just leave him out of this.

He's on his way out.

He doesn't like that job.

That's what I'm afraid of.

First is when asking to do something different.

Yeah.

And so there's almost these categories of what you don't like and what you might like and what you want to do.

And I mean, if anything, that fear might even serve you.

Because if your boss starts thinking that you don't like your job, well, then that will allow you to craft your job into certain categories.

Yeah.

Maybe he or she will be worried, I'm going to leave if they don't let me do just a little bit something different.

Throw them a carrot, a bone.

Yeah.

So if we're afraid that we're not going to be clear enough, our boss is going to start thinking we don't like our job, then we say, okay, so how do I prevent this?

Oh, I need to go to my boss with things that I like, things that I'm not as happy with, things that I would like to do more of and have a career development conversation with them.

But maybe that's really scary.

A better plan than just a one sentence and then stop and not be able to say anything else and be waiting for your boss to speak.

Have some backup things in the pocket to come back with to have a conversation with.

100 percent.

But maybe that's scary.

And so then instead of saying, I don't like this, I want to do this, you just say, you pick one little thing, one little project, go to your boss and say, do you know anyone working on this type of work?

I'd love to just kind of shadow them and get involved.

I read an article about it or listen to a podcast about it.

I think I might enjoy it and add it on to my current workload.

You know, it's getting less scary now.

I can picture myself because I'm an executive, a professional, an engineer, manager.

I'm going to have a notebook or something or my computer, something I can have the script on, a roadmap, right?

Like you just said, Ben, I walk in there, here's my first question.

Based on the response, I've got another one like you just said.

Are there any other, do you know of any other teams I could get on?

I have something to go on with versus going back to fear in my head, which is like a deer in the headlights and just walk out like, oh no.

And that sounds, I'm way less fearful now that we mapped it out that way.

I will go with, I will go prepared with a notebook.

My plan, get a notebook out there.

What I'm going to say if this happens and my exit strategy, if all else fails, good talk, boss.

You know, you ever see those images of yes or no, and they branch off to different decisions or different areas?

It's kind of like a decision tree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And well, you do that for conversation.

So I'm going to say this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you just build it out.

You build it out for different situations.

Yeah.

But not too complex.

I got to be able to read it.

We'll keep it simple enough.

Yeah.

That I don't have to pause and go, okay, let me see what else is in my notebook, boss, before I say anything.

I mean, you know, five or six bullet points.

Kind of like you're preparing for a speech, an index card, you know, a couple of bullet points.

An in and an out.

A way to get myself out, and a way to get in, and then in between what I want and something like that.

But decision tree, yeah.

Yeah, nice.

So, how can someone, one of the other things I got off your website or your book somewhere, how to be the leader of your own career.

Think we're speaking about it a lot.

Yeah.

How do you help someone identify their strengths?

How do you coach someone who loves what they do, but now they want to move their manager, CEO, an engineer, whatever.

They want to move, they want to advance.

They're not trying to go change jobs.

They're doing their dream job.

They just want more success.

How do you help them there set a course and navigate that?

Define, I think I used the word, write their story, define their brand, personal brand.

How do you do that?

Yeah, we have to know what success means for them and what success means in the organization.

But generally, the number one tip is in the book, too.

If you want to be promoted, act like you've been promoted.

So you have to act as if you're already in the role that you're interested in.

And that means you need to like assess what executive leadership is in your company.

How do people act?

What are they dressed like?

What questions do they ask?

What meetings do they go to?

How do they communicate?

And then start mimicking and mirroring some of those actions.

And if the role that you want is more strategic, well, you need to start talking about strategy.

If the role that you want is a people manager, then you start talking about leadership.

And go read and talk to or study some leadership skills.

You need to maybe take on an intern or you need a mentor.

Like there are little things you can do to start being in the next position now.

And if anyone wants to be promoted, you need to start talking about that promotion about six months before you actually want to be promoted.

Because it takes that long to figure out what you need to achieve, the stories you need to tell, who you need to go get more visible to, what sort of budget you might be getting.

You generally never want to wait until the end of the year or a performance review for that.

And that also allows you to build...

Sorry?

Why do you not want to wait to the end of your other performance review task for a...

Because you haven't started the conversation, so the manager hasn't built the path for you to get that promotion.

They also haven't shared with you what expectations you need to meet to be promoted.

And so you're just hoping to get promoted, but you haven't actually planned it out.

There's no, if I do this, this happens.

Oh, I see.

So this is another conversation.

I go to my boss with my bullet points.

I would like to six months from now, you know, be at this grade, whether it's an engineer or manager.

What do I have to do the next six months of this year to get there?

Give me some bullet points.

So when we have our performance review next year or whenever there's an opening, then you can consider me.

Yeah, and even going and approaching it almost as a mentor, because when your boss feels like they're on their side and they're invested in your growth, it's going to help you.

So go to your boss and you say, wow, your position seems really, like I'm really impressed with your career path so far.

Can you share with me a little bit about how you've gotten there?

Then you talk to them.

And then you ask, you know, I'm actually thinking of what that next step would be for me in the next six months or year.

Can we chart a path?

Can we plan for, you know, how I can get there?

And can we check in on that path every week?

Just to make sure that we're on the right path, that it's going to happen, and I can help you help me kind of get to that next role.

This is where the conflict comes into my head just now, because I'm completely painting a picture like at the company.

And, you know, one thing would be, we'll play golf, we'll come to the charity event.

There's all these smoozing and politics, right?

Which to me, we're getting distracted from what happened to let's learn how to be better leaders.

I'm becoming one of you, which I want, but then it seems a conflict, personally a conflict, because until I get to position and can write my own rules, tell my team, lead my own team, I'm kind of, as you say, mentoring, shadowing, or leadership in most and a lot of companies, right?

While I try to, I'm basically getting mentored, unfortunately, in quite a few corporations by people who are bad leaders, but they're good smoothers.

Because they're following, they're adapting to, as you say, the look, the dress, the talk.

And wait a minute, that means I'm adapting to bad leadership styles too.

This is a fact, and it's a hard one to fix, as you know.

We talk about it.

The truth is, a lot of people out there are still frustrated because things don't change even though we have these MBA programs and people are taking them and supposed to learn better management skills.

I'm not trying to be negative, Ben.

I like to focus on solutions, not problems.

It's just a thought that came to my head as I pictured trying to do this, advance manager.

Well, I mean, I don't mind that there's poor leadership because I get to go fix it.

So it exists, and sadly, generally one of the biggest issues in organizations is they promote people without training them.

People that are in positions have certain habits that are pretty negative, toxic, kind of dictatorial style of leadership, no communication.

So that exists.

Now, luckily, getting a position as a leader doesn't mean that you have to act like that leader.

It just means that you have to show up as an executive, have executive presence in a room and how engaged you are in meetings and the questions that you ask.

Now, yes, visibility is important because when you move from an individual contributor to a manager or a leader, the quality of your work, the fact that you can make a bunch of widgets doesn't matter.

What matters is what do people think about you and honestly, do they like you?

And do they think that you can inspire followers?

And your subject matter expertise, the fact that you're a technical expert, starts mattering less and less.

This is true.

I observed that.

Unfortunately, some of the most brilliant people I observed never got promoted or worse put in a corner as people didn't like them because, and they were really smart and they really knew the stuff.

It just didn't make sense.

But since people didn't like them, they stopped getting invited to meetings and stopped being invited as part of the team that got cornered.

So the people out there who are geeks, like to be by themselves, I get it.

But you got to work with Ben if you need to get some social skills somehow.

You got to make friends with people.

I was so awkward when I was younger.

So awkward.

I felt like every social group was laughing at me when I would try to say something.

And the first thing that I learned was not how to be a leader, it was how to be a social butterfly.

I studied everything I could in terms of interpersonal dynamics and social and behavioral psychology.

Like how to win friends and influence people.

Give somebody an example.

Pretend I'm the geek.

I'm the computer nerd.

There's a lot of them these days.

But back in the day, there weren't many.

So our scientists or someone, you're just in your cubicle, you don't like to talk to people.

One that comes to mind is just invite somebody to lunch, right?

Making this up.

I'm in a big corporation.

We have our own lunch room.

Hey, would you like to go to lunch with me?

What's one of your ideas, Ben?

I think that's a great one because you need to be social.

Instead of going to eat and play off of the food thing, instead of going to eat alone, go sit down with people and listen to their conversation, and maybe say something and maybe ask two questions.

It's not difficult if you give yourself some like bullet points.

Okay, right now, I need to go sit with people for lunch, which means that you might have to adjust your workday and be in a social environment that you don't want to be in.

And also take a risk because as a shy person sitting by yourself, if nobody talks to you, and the whole time you're like, I wish I could speak, I wish I had friends, it's a miserable experience.

You'd want to go sit by yourself in the corner again.

So tell us Ben, how if I go sit down next to five other managers speaking, and I'm not a manager yet, I'm just trying to surround myself by those I aspire to be like, what, what words would come out of my mouth to get me into the conversation so I just don't feel like a fly on the wall?

Yeah.

Well, first off, don't be a fly on the wall.

Ask, do you mind if I sit here?

Do you mind if I join you?

Perfect.

So if someone invites you to sit with them, you're in.

And then just pay attention.

Listen, listen to what there's.

Don't feel any pressure to say anything.

Don't feel any pressure to add to the conversation.

Which note a good one came to mind is because people always love it when you make them look smart or important or helpful.

If you ask a question, that's where we were going.

Don't feel like you have to add to the conversation, but do pay attention and listen and then ask a question.

That is the most important thing when you're in any sort of social environment, is to ask questions.

Because then it gives them the opportunity to talk and they're going to be talking to you.

Yeah.

And you show that you paid attention.

Everyone loves to help other people.

So, and then you can probably sneak in, oh, you know, some day I'm going to school and I'm taking it.

I'm getting an MBA class.

Someday, maybe I'll come circle back to you for more.

As you're doing it, you know, and you're doing what I want to do.

You're doing my dream.

Everybody wants to talk about themselves.

How do you get to where you are?

When did you get hired?

What project are you working on?

What are your goals next?

Where do you go to school?

Like all those things.

Yeah.

Before you know, it'll be, it'll be fun to go to lunch.

We'll be looking forward to, which is another idea came to my mind then.

What do you think about this?

I may go to the same five people, sit down at the same table twice.

The third time I'll pick a different group to sit down with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I also don't want to get locked into five people.

I want, what about those five people?

What if, what do they know?

What, who's that?

So, talk to somebody different.

Plus, then you can go when you're in conversation.

Oh yeah, Ben, you know, Joe, I talked, I was sitting with Joe at lunch yesterday, and he said this.

100%.

You're networking without calling it networking, just being a human, talking to other people.

100%.

We, generally, because I've been antisocial, or I've been less of a social butterfly, I will avoid social situations.

If we're trying to excel in our career, that is the death sentence.

We have to, we have to find those social opportunities.

Not a lot, but just some.

So, last topic to cover, how to be, how to lead when you're not the leader.

Like, you're at work.

How do you influence others?

Take some leadership when you're actually not the boss or the team leader.

So, but you know, you have a good idea and we know we should do this, but the boss is not here to hold our hands and I've got a good idea.

And how do you get people to accept that and get them on board?

So, so again, a leader is just someone that has followers, someone that, people that believe in what you're working on and want to work on it too.

And generally, that is easier if people trust you.

It's easier if you've talked with them at the lunchroom table because now you have a relationship with them.

But telling someone what to do generally does not work.

Asking them what they think they should do and then sharing your own ideas and having a conversation generally does, as well as if it's aligned to what they want to achieve.

So let's say you have an idea, you're working on a project, you know that Joe cares about making 10 widgets and your idea is going to help them make 10 widgets.

Well, your job is to share how your idea is going to help them make 10 widgets and to show them that what you are suggesting is going to help them achieve their goals.

So you're tying your initiatives to their overall goals.

You're kind of focusing on a strategic stakeholder engagement.

Yeah, like if we do this, both of us benefit.

We both get our job done faster and better.

100%.

We both benefit.

I'm helping you, I'm supporting you, we're working together, you trust me.

Generally, that will...

And being patient and asking questions, because if you give...

Again, giving someone the time for someone to talk is going to strengthen that relationship.

And if you don't agree with someone, the worst thing you can do is not agree with someone.

You need to ask them questions about their reasoning and then learn more about what their underlying goal is.

And then if what they want is going to help them get them there, then okay.

But generally, if it doesn't, and your way will, then highlighting how your way is going to get them to their goals.

This is true.

I noticed this when you ask people, why don't you like it?

And not in a negative, condescending way, just kind of curious why.

When they think about it for a moment and don't have a good response, maybe they do, a lot of times they don't.

They go, oh, and then all of a sudden they're on board.

You don't even have to do anything else.

It's like a switch went off.

They would.

Yeah.

You don't need to argue and make sure when you're saying why it's not, why it's generally it's easier for people that aren't entirely sure how to have inflection when they ask questions to avoid the question why and more so focus on, like, tell me more about that or what do you mean?

Or how does that work?

Can you explain that for me?

Yep.

And because instead of why can sometimes be perceived as confrontational and just be, and if we're not really socially astute, I can sometimes use that in a negative way.

Yeah.

I think I was saying it too simple.

I don't know if, yeah, that would be threatening.

Why?

Intonation, like you said, inflection, my boy.

So how else would I do it?

Why?

Why?

Why?

What you said is better.

Tell me more about your ideas or what you think.

Tell me more about what you're going to do.

Maybe we can do it your way.

Even.

So what would you say to someone listening to summarize things?

Not satisfied in their job, dreads going to work because we spoke earlier, the zombie work environment at a breaking point.

Like, I don't want to go to work tomorrow.

But they cannot make a change because the money is good, and they don't think the job market is great, and they're going to have to take action.

Like you said, as we wrap things up, a single piece of advice you have for them, besides going to give your website and the show notes, call Ben and work with him.

What's single piece of advice for listeners in general?

Yeah.

Well, two pieces of advice.

First off, build a safety net so you don't have to be reliant on one job and live in fear.

So that could be through saving, it could be through part-time work, it could be through being an entrepreneur, or a side house, or whatever it is, cutting down expenses.

Build a safety net so you can feel comfortable leaving a job for six months to a year, if that's possible.

I highly recommend it.

The next piece would be to show up each and every single day, learning something, building towards a future career.

So even if you don't like your job, you're burnt out, you're not happy, whatever it is, know that what you're doing today is going to benefit what you want to do in two to three years.

That might be a project that you start on your own.

It might be relationships that you network with in other parts of the company.

It might be learning, getting a license or a credential that the company is going to pay for.

So that should help you feel about it.

Continuing education.

Yeah.

Is there anything we haven't talked about you want to add?

Oh, there's a whole life journey that we can talk about.

But I think that overall, it comes down to what do you want to achieve and how are you structuring your environment and your day and your mindset to be oriented towards it.

And so be the best leader that you have in your life.

No one else matters other than you.

And get out there and live fearlessly.

Perfect.

His website is liveforyourselfconsulting.com.

That's liveforyourselfconsulting.com.

He does career coaching for leaders and those just wanting general help with their careers.

His book is Becoming Fearless, 65 Strategies to Journey from Self-Doubt to Self-Mastery.

Details are in the show notes.

Ben, Dr. Benjamin Ritter, thanks so much for being on my show.

It's been real helpful.

Thank you for having me.

Have a great day.